Entry in Global Pastors Network:
As preachers and teachers, all of us know how easy it is to reduce the plain teaching of Jesus into something we can do. So instead of teaching as Jesus did that we are 'to sell our possessions and give to those in need' (Luke 12:33) we teach that giving a tithe to the church is enough.
Instead of teaching as Jesus did that 'we must not oppose those who want to hurt us' (Matthew 5:39) or 'give to everyone who asks of us, and don't refrain from lending to those who wish to borrow from us' (Matthew 5:42) we come up with watered down versions that leverage concepts like 'balance' and 'stewardship' to proportions that ultimately deny the words of Christ.
In short we take the words of Jesus and make them less demanding, more palatable to the base point of being kind and not upsetting the status quo.
No wonder our churches are so anemic. When we ask little of people, we get little. This is not the way of Jesus. Jesus asked of his disciples everything they had, and because he did, he got everything they had.
The mistake we make in dumbing down the words of Jesus is captured beautifully in the words of Soren Kierkegaard:
"The Bible is very easy to understand. But we Christians are a bunch of scheming swindlers. We pretend to be unable to understand it because we know very well that the minute we understand, we are obliged to act accordingly.”
In dumbing down the words of Jesus, we are scheming swindlers.
Time to repent and teach what Jesus taught, even if we realize in teaching his words, how far we are from living them out. Better to teach what he taught even if it makes you an hypocrite, than dumbing down his words into something that makes you a saint.
Monday, August 25, 2014
Friday, August 22, 2014
Overcoming ISIS
Thinking about the gruesome terrors of ISIS and other such groups who resort to 'shock and awe tactics in suppressing others...
It is easy in the wake of such horrific violence to respond with violence. It is the way of the world. It is the way we protect ourselves.
But it is not the way of Jesus. 'He who lives by the sword dies by the sword.' 'Vengeance is mine' says the Lord.
We don't like those verses because they put our lives at risk.
But for the first 3 centuries of the church, despite ISIS type persecution, the church of Christ did not strike back. They turned the other cheek. And rather than be crushed, the church flourished.
But in the 4th Century the church was co-opted by the Roman Empire. In exchange for becoming the state religion, the church embrace the way of the sword. The church sought the protection of Empire rather than the protection of Christ.
Not everyone of course, but enough that most Christians, me included, have lost the capacity to imagine a different response to violence than violence. We subscribe to the notions of 'redemptive violence' and the 'just war' theology of St. Augustine.
We desperately need to recover the imagination and courage to resort to another way. For the demise of Christianity isn't terrorism nor the sword of religious extremism. It comes when Christians abdicate the way of Christ for the sword. In doing so, we acquiesce to not believing in the power of Christ to prevail even if it costs us our lives.
How do we resist evil? Not by placating it. Nor by resorting to the weapons of this world.
We resist evil by standing against principalities and powers. By putting on the whole armour of God.
And by loving our enemies, turning the other cheek, speaking truth to power and declaring Christ's authority over the kingdoms of this world.
The New Testament makes no allowance for any other way. Jesus didn't teach that loving one's enemies, or turning the other cheek or forgiving one's enemies was optional. It is the way of Christ and when we choose some other way, it is no longer the way of Christ.
In all honesty, I wish the way of Jesus did allow for retaliation, that it did allow for an eye for an eye, but it doesn't. Without exception it doesn't.
The overwhelming message of the New Testament is that Love conquers all. That even though we are lambs being lead to slaughter we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. Note that we are conquerors not because we beat down our enemies. We are conquerers even when we die at the hands of our enemies.
What an unbelievably hard message!
No wonder Christianity has so few disciples! But for the few there are, their light can never be snuffed out, and the kingdom they advance is the only kingdom that will remain.
Wednesday, April 30, 2014
Tough minded and tender hearts - wisdom from MLK
from Martin Luther King’s ‘A Tough mind and a tender heart’
Jesus recognized the need for blending opposites. He knew his disciples would face a difficult and hostile world, where they would confront the recalcitrance of political officials and the intransigence of the protectors of the old order. He knew they would meet cold and arrogant men whose hearts had been hardened by the long winter of traditionalism. So he said to them, “Behold I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves.” And he gave them a formula for action, “Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.’ It is pretty difficult to imagine a single person having, simultaneously, the characteristics of the serpent and the dove, but this is what Jesus expects. We must combine the toughness of the serpent and the softness of the dove, a tough mind and a tender heart.
Let us consider, first, the need for a tough mind, characterized by incisive thinking, realistic appraisal and decisive judgment. The tough mind is sharp and penetrating, breaking through the crust of legends and myths and sifting the true from the false. The tough-minded individual is astute and discerning. He (she) has a strong, austere quality that makes for firmness of purpose and solidness of commitment.
Who doubts that this toughness of mind is one of humanity’s greatest needs? Rarely do we find people who willingly engage in hard, solid thinking. There is an almost universal quest for easy answers and half-baked solutions. Nothing pains some people more than having to think.
This prevalent soft-mindedness is found in man’s unbelievable gullibility…Few people realize that even our authentic channels of information - the press, the platform and in many instances, the pulpit - do not give us objective and unbiased truth. Few people have the toughness of mind to judge critically and discern the true from the false, the fact from the fiction. Our minds are constantly being invaded by legions of half-truths, prejudices and false facts. One of the great needs of humanity is to be lifted above the morass of false propaganda.
Soft-minded individuals are prone to embrace all sorts of superstitions...which range from fear of Friday the 13th to fear of a black cat crossing one’s path. Such fears leave the soft mind haggard by day and haunted by night.
The soft-minded man always fears change. He feels security in the status quo, and he has an almost morbid fear of the new. For him the greatest pain is the pain of a new idea. An elderly segregationist in the South is reported to have said, “I have come to see now that desegregation is inevitable. But I pray God that it will not take place until after I die.” The soft-minded person always wants to freeze the moment and hold life in the gripping yoke of sameness.
Soft-mindedness often invades religion. This is why religion has sometimes rejected new truth with a dogmatic passion. Through edicts and bulls, inquisitions and excommunications, the church has attempted to prorogue truth and place an impenetrable stone wall in the path of the truth-seeker. Reason is often looked upon as the exercise of a corrupt faculty. Soft-minded persons have revised the Beatitudes to read, “Blessed are the pure in ignorance; for they shall see God.”
This has also led to a widespread belief that there is a conflict between science and religion. But this is not true. There may be a conflict between soft-minded religionists and tough-minded scientists, but not between science and religion…
Science investigates; religion interprets. Science gives man knowledge which is power; religion gives man wisdom which is control. Science deals mainly with facts; religions deals mainly with values. The two are not rivals. They are complementary. Science keeps religion from sinking into the valley of crippling irrationalism and paralyzing obscurantism. Religion prevents science from falling into the marsh of obsolete materialism and moral nihilism.
We do not have to go far to detect the dangers of soft-mindedness. Dictators, capitalizing on soft-mindedness, have led men to acts of barbarity and terror that are unthinkable in civilized society. Adolf Hitler realized that soft-mindedness was so prevalent among his followers that he said, “I use emotion for the many and reserve reason for the few.” In Mein Kampf he asserted: “By means of shrewd lies, unremittedly repeated, it is possible to make people believe that heaven is hell - and hell, heaven…The greater the lie, the more readily it will be believed.”
There is little hope for us until we become tough-minded enough to break loose from the shackles of prejudice, half-truths and downright ignorance. The shape of the world today does not permit us the luxury of soft-mindedness. A nation or a civilization that continues to produce soft-minded people purchases its own spiritual death on an instalment plan.
But we must not stop with the cultivation of a tough mind. The gospel also demands a tender heart. Tough-mindedness without tenderness of heart is cold and detached, leaving one’s life in a perpetual winter devoid of the warmth of spring and the gentle heat of summer. What is more tragic than to see a person who has risen to the disciplined heights of tough-mindedness but has at the same time sunk to the passionless depths of hard-heartedness?
The hard-hearted person never truly loves. He engages in a crass utilitarianism which values other people mainly according to their usefulness to him. He never experiences the beauty of friendship, because he is too cold to feel affection for another and is too self-centred to share another’s joy and sorrow. He is an isolated island. No outpouring of love links him with the mainland of humanity.
The hard-hearted person lacks the capacity for genuine compassion. He is unmoved by the pains and afflictions of his brothers. He passes unfortunate men every day, but he never really sees them. He gives dollars to a worthwhile charity, but he gives not of his spirit.
The hard-hearted individual never sees people as people, but rather as mere objects or as impersonal cogs in an ever turning wheel. In the vast wheel of industry, he sees men as hands. In the massive wheel of big city life, he sees men as digits in a multitude. In the deadly wheel of army life, he sees men as numbers in a regiment. He depersonalizes life.
Jesus frequently illustrated the characteristics of the hard-hearted. The rich fool was condemned, not because he was not tough-minded, but because he was not tender-hearted. Life for him was a mirror in which he only saw himself, and not a window through which he saw other selves. The rich man in Luke 16 went to hell, not because he was wealthy but because he was not tender-hearted enough to see Lazarus and because he made no attempt to bridge the gulf between himself and his brother.
Jesus reminds us that the good life combines the toughness of the serpent and the tenderness of the dove. To have serpent like qualities devoid of dove-like qualities is to be passionless, mean and selfish. To have dove-like without serpent-like qualities is to be sentimental, anemic and aimless. We must combine strongly marked antitheses…
I would not conclude without applying the meaning of the text to the greatness of God. The greatness of our God lies in the fact that he is both tough-minded and tenderhearted. He has qualities of austerity and of gentleness. The Bible, always clear in attributing both attributes to God, expresses his tough-mindedness in his justice and wrath and his tender-heartedness in his love and grace. God has two outstretched arms. One is strong enough to surround us with justice and one is gentle enough to embrace us with grace. On the one hand, God is a God of justice who punished Israel for her wayward deeds, and on the other hand, he is a forgiving father whose heart is filled with unutterable joy when the prodigal returned home.
I am thankful we worship a God who is both tough-minded and tender-hearted. If God were only tough-minded, he would be a cold, passionless despot sitting in some far-off heaven contemplating all. He would be Aristotle’s ‘unmoved mover,' self-knowing but not other-loving. But if God were only tender-hearted, he would be too soft and sentimental to function when things go wrong and incapable of controlling what he has made.
God is neither hard-hearted nor soft-minded. He is tough-minded enough to transcend the world; he is tender-hearted enough to live in it. He does not leave us alone in our agonies and struggles. He seeks us in dark places and suffers with us and for us in our tragic prodigality.
At times we need to know that the Lord is a God of justice. When the slumbering giants of injustice emerge in the earth, we need to know there is a God of power who can cut them down like grass and leave them withering like the green herb. When our most tireless efforts fail to stop the surging sweep of oppression, we need to know that in this universe is a God whose matchless strength is a fit contrast to the sordid weakness of man.
But there are also times when we need to know that God possesses love and mercy. When we are staggered by the chilly winds of adversity and battered by the raging storms of disappointment and when through our folly and sin we stray into some destructive far country and are frustrated because of a strange feeling of homesickness, we need to know there is Someone who loves us, cares for us, understands us and will give us another chance. When days grow dark and nights grow dreary, we can be thankful that our God combines in his nature a creative synthesis of love and justice which will lead us through life’s dark valleys and into sunlit pathways of hope and fulfilment.
Jesus recognized the need for blending opposites. He knew his disciples would face a difficult and hostile world, where they would confront the recalcitrance of political officials and the intransigence of the protectors of the old order. He knew they would meet cold and arrogant men whose hearts had been hardened by the long winter of traditionalism. So he said to them, “Behold I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves.” And he gave them a formula for action, “Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.’ It is pretty difficult to imagine a single person having, simultaneously, the characteristics of the serpent and the dove, but this is what Jesus expects. We must combine the toughness of the serpent and the softness of the dove, a tough mind and a tender heart.
Let us consider, first, the need for a tough mind, characterized by incisive thinking, realistic appraisal and decisive judgment. The tough mind is sharp and penetrating, breaking through the crust of legends and myths and sifting the true from the false. The tough-minded individual is astute and discerning. He (she) has a strong, austere quality that makes for firmness of purpose and solidness of commitment.
Who doubts that this toughness of mind is one of humanity’s greatest needs? Rarely do we find people who willingly engage in hard, solid thinking. There is an almost universal quest for easy answers and half-baked solutions. Nothing pains some people more than having to think.
This prevalent soft-mindedness is found in man’s unbelievable gullibility…Few people realize that even our authentic channels of information - the press, the platform and in many instances, the pulpit - do not give us objective and unbiased truth. Few people have the toughness of mind to judge critically and discern the true from the false, the fact from the fiction. Our minds are constantly being invaded by legions of half-truths, prejudices and false facts. One of the great needs of humanity is to be lifted above the morass of false propaganda.
Soft-minded individuals are prone to embrace all sorts of superstitions...which range from fear of Friday the 13th to fear of a black cat crossing one’s path. Such fears leave the soft mind haggard by day and haunted by night.
The soft-minded man always fears change. He feels security in the status quo, and he has an almost morbid fear of the new. For him the greatest pain is the pain of a new idea. An elderly segregationist in the South is reported to have said, “I have come to see now that desegregation is inevitable. But I pray God that it will not take place until after I die.” The soft-minded person always wants to freeze the moment and hold life in the gripping yoke of sameness.
Soft-mindedness often invades religion. This is why religion has sometimes rejected new truth with a dogmatic passion. Through edicts and bulls, inquisitions and excommunications, the church has attempted to prorogue truth and place an impenetrable stone wall in the path of the truth-seeker. Reason is often looked upon as the exercise of a corrupt faculty. Soft-minded persons have revised the Beatitudes to read, “Blessed are the pure in ignorance; for they shall see God.”
This has also led to a widespread belief that there is a conflict between science and religion. But this is not true. There may be a conflict between soft-minded religionists and tough-minded scientists, but not between science and religion…
Science investigates; religion interprets. Science gives man knowledge which is power; religion gives man wisdom which is control. Science deals mainly with facts; religions deals mainly with values. The two are not rivals. They are complementary. Science keeps religion from sinking into the valley of crippling irrationalism and paralyzing obscurantism. Religion prevents science from falling into the marsh of obsolete materialism and moral nihilism.
We do not have to go far to detect the dangers of soft-mindedness. Dictators, capitalizing on soft-mindedness, have led men to acts of barbarity and terror that are unthinkable in civilized society. Adolf Hitler realized that soft-mindedness was so prevalent among his followers that he said, “I use emotion for the many and reserve reason for the few.” In Mein Kampf he asserted: “By means of shrewd lies, unremittedly repeated, it is possible to make people believe that heaven is hell - and hell, heaven…The greater the lie, the more readily it will be believed.”
There is little hope for us until we become tough-minded enough to break loose from the shackles of prejudice, half-truths and downright ignorance. The shape of the world today does not permit us the luxury of soft-mindedness. A nation or a civilization that continues to produce soft-minded people purchases its own spiritual death on an instalment plan.
But we must not stop with the cultivation of a tough mind. The gospel also demands a tender heart. Tough-mindedness without tenderness of heart is cold and detached, leaving one’s life in a perpetual winter devoid of the warmth of spring and the gentle heat of summer. What is more tragic than to see a person who has risen to the disciplined heights of tough-mindedness but has at the same time sunk to the passionless depths of hard-heartedness?
The hard-hearted person never truly loves. He engages in a crass utilitarianism which values other people mainly according to their usefulness to him. He never experiences the beauty of friendship, because he is too cold to feel affection for another and is too self-centred to share another’s joy and sorrow. He is an isolated island. No outpouring of love links him with the mainland of humanity.
The hard-hearted person lacks the capacity for genuine compassion. He is unmoved by the pains and afflictions of his brothers. He passes unfortunate men every day, but he never really sees them. He gives dollars to a worthwhile charity, but he gives not of his spirit.
The hard-hearted individual never sees people as people, but rather as mere objects or as impersonal cogs in an ever turning wheel. In the vast wheel of industry, he sees men as hands. In the massive wheel of big city life, he sees men as digits in a multitude. In the deadly wheel of army life, he sees men as numbers in a regiment. He depersonalizes life.
Jesus frequently illustrated the characteristics of the hard-hearted. The rich fool was condemned, not because he was not tough-minded, but because he was not tender-hearted. Life for him was a mirror in which he only saw himself, and not a window through which he saw other selves. The rich man in Luke 16 went to hell, not because he was wealthy but because he was not tender-hearted enough to see Lazarus and because he made no attempt to bridge the gulf between himself and his brother.
Jesus reminds us that the good life combines the toughness of the serpent and the tenderness of the dove. To have serpent like qualities devoid of dove-like qualities is to be passionless, mean and selfish. To have dove-like without serpent-like qualities is to be sentimental, anemic and aimless. We must combine strongly marked antitheses…
I would not conclude without applying the meaning of the text to the greatness of God. The greatness of our God lies in the fact that he is both tough-minded and tenderhearted. He has qualities of austerity and of gentleness. The Bible, always clear in attributing both attributes to God, expresses his tough-mindedness in his justice and wrath and his tender-heartedness in his love and grace. God has two outstretched arms. One is strong enough to surround us with justice and one is gentle enough to embrace us with grace. On the one hand, God is a God of justice who punished Israel for her wayward deeds, and on the other hand, he is a forgiving father whose heart is filled with unutterable joy when the prodigal returned home.
I am thankful we worship a God who is both tough-minded and tender-hearted. If God were only tough-minded, he would be a cold, passionless despot sitting in some far-off heaven contemplating all. He would be Aristotle’s ‘unmoved mover,' self-knowing but not other-loving. But if God were only tender-hearted, he would be too soft and sentimental to function when things go wrong and incapable of controlling what he has made.
God is neither hard-hearted nor soft-minded. He is tough-minded enough to transcend the world; he is tender-hearted enough to live in it. He does not leave us alone in our agonies and struggles. He seeks us in dark places and suffers with us and for us in our tragic prodigality.
At times we need to know that the Lord is a God of justice. When the slumbering giants of injustice emerge in the earth, we need to know there is a God of power who can cut them down like grass and leave them withering like the green herb. When our most tireless efforts fail to stop the surging sweep of oppression, we need to know that in this universe is a God whose matchless strength is a fit contrast to the sordid weakness of man.
But there are also times when we need to know that God possesses love and mercy. When we are staggered by the chilly winds of adversity and battered by the raging storms of disappointment and when through our folly and sin we stray into some destructive far country and are frustrated because of a strange feeling of homesickness, we need to know there is Someone who loves us, cares for us, understands us and will give us another chance. When days grow dark and nights grow dreary, we can be thankful that our God combines in his nature a creative synthesis of love and justice which will lead us through life’s dark valleys and into sunlit pathways of hope and fulfilment.
Monday, April 21, 2014
Blessing or curse?
Another LinkedIn Group Discussion
Topic: How would Joseph know he is not cursed?
Guy Morrell-Stinson
TheChurch.Today | ThriveWorldExpo.com | WhitefieldsInstitute.com | Leaders-Worldwide.com | Soul-fractures.com
This question has to do with being cursed.
Consider Joseph, versus God's promises to be 'good' to one who follows Him. I assume, from what I read about Joseph, that he was a righteous man. Yet, his life appeared to be cursed. He constantly does the right thing, but is constantly betrayed, lied to, abused, let down by friends, and imprisoned, etc. We know the rest of the story.
So my question has to do with modern-day disciples who seeks the Lord with all their heart. They daily seek to be right with God, and yet finds their lives 'cursed.' How do such people know if they are on the right track with God, or actually deceived and in reality cursed? Not all 'Joseph' -like stories have a great ending. (Consider Matthew 7:20-23).
Insights?
Reading the beatitudes from a contemporary translation (Common English Bible) from Matthew 5 provides at least 1/2 the answer:
3 "Happy are people who are hopeless, because the kingdom of heaven is theirs.
4 “Happy are people who grieve, because they will be made glad.
10 “Happy are people whose lives are harassed because they are righteous, because the kingdom of heaven is theirs.
11 “Happy are you when people insult you and harass you and speak all kinds of bad and false things about you, all because of me.
12 Be full of joy and be glad, because you have a great reward in heaven. In the same way, people harassed the prophets who came before you.
Any of the 4 groupings of people Jesus identifies as 'blessed' or 'happy' - we would be inclined to call cursed.
The other 1/2 has to do with our predisposition to link blessing with power, wealth and fame - none of which matter as far as Jesus is concerned.
Jesus pronounces 'woe' on those we think of as blessed (from Luke 4):
24 But how terrible for you who are rich,
because you have already received your comfort.
25 How terrible for you who have plenty now,
because you will be hungry.
How terrible for you who laugh now,
because you will mourn and weep.
26 How terrible for you when all speak well of you.
Their ancestors did the same things to the false prophets.
From Jesus' perspective: wealth, privilege, affluence and political influence are more curse than blessing, more deceptive than real, and more likely to mislead than direct us to the truth.
Topic: How would Joseph know he is not cursed?
Guy Morrell-Stinson
TheChurch.Today | ThriveWorldExpo.com | WhitefieldsInstitute.com | Leaders-Worldwide.com | Soul-fractures.com
This question has to do with being cursed.
Consider Joseph, versus God's promises to be 'good' to one who follows Him. I assume, from what I read about Joseph, that he was a righteous man. Yet, his life appeared to be cursed. He constantly does the right thing, but is constantly betrayed, lied to, abused, let down by friends, and imprisoned, etc. We know the rest of the story.
So my question has to do with modern-day disciples who seeks the Lord with all their heart. They daily seek to be right with God, and yet finds their lives 'cursed.' How do such people know if they are on the right track with God, or actually deceived and in reality cursed? Not all 'Joseph' -like stories have a great ending. (Consider Matthew 7:20-23).
Insights?
Reading the beatitudes from a contemporary translation (Common English Bible) from Matthew 5 provides at least 1/2 the answer:
3 "Happy are people who are hopeless, because the kingdom of heaven is theirs.
4 “Happy are people who grieve, because they will be made glad.
10 “Happy are people whose lives are harassed because they are righteous, because the kingdom of heaven is theirs.
11 “Happy are you when people insult you and harass you and speak all kinds of bad and false things about you, all because of me.
12 Be full of joy and be glad, because you have a great reward in heaven. In the same way, people harassed the prophets who came before you.
Any of the 4 groupings of people Jesus identifies as 'blessed' or 'happy' - we would be inclined to call cursed.
The other 1/2 has to do with our predisposition to link blessing with power, wealth and fame - none of which matter as far as Jesus is concerned.
Jesus pronounces 'woe' on those we think of as blessed (from Luke 4):
24 But how terrible for you who are rich,
because you have already received your comfort.
25 How terrible for you who have plenty now,
because you will be hungry.
How terrible for you who laugh now,
because you will mourn and weep.
26 How terrible for you when all speak well of you.
Their ancestors did the same things to the false prophets.
From Jesus' perspective: wealth, privilege, affluence and political influence are more curse than blessing, more deceptive than real, and more likely to mislead than direct us to the truth.
Saturday, April 12, 2014
Persecution
Another exchange on the Global Pastors Network:
Persecution of the saints.
How many are prepared for the persecution of Christians, which has already started in other nations, that is quietly starting here in the U.S. by allowing every religion to freely practice and express themselves while trying to silence the Christian voice.
Tuesday, March 18, 2014
End time theology
These were my contributions to this Global Pastors Network on this topic:
One of the great challenges of scripture is to know what is literal and what is figurative.
When Jesus talked about plucking one's eye out if it causes us to sin, he had something other than our applying a knife to deal with the offending eye.
When he talked about loving our enemies, he literally meant 'our enemies.'
The trouble with much of contemporary eschatology is that it chooses to be literal about passages which are clearly figurative, at the expense of passages which are as literal as a stop sign.
The only reference in the Bible to a 1000 year rule is in the book of Revelation, a book we are to take most seriously, despite its being quite figurative. It is prophecy, quite visual, unspeakably majestic directed to people suffering for their faith, many at the expense of their lives. Its central message? Christ is the alpha and omega, the beginning and the end, the Lord of history, whose purposes can't be thwarted and whose death is our redemption and death's destruction. The Revelation is of the Lord who is and who is to come, and not a book of speculation as to where or when. To repeat Arthur's statement: 'no one knows the hour.' No one.
To root one's eschatology in this book alone, with complete indifference to more specific passages about Christ's return, has not only lead to bad theology/eschatology like Hal Lindsay's 'The Late Great Planet Earth', the horrific 'Chick' tracts, the monster money maker 'The Left Behind' series (truly worthy of being 'left behind') but a whole host of eschatological speculations that make horoscopes and celebrity gossip magazines look good.
Until 1830 when that crazy Darby guy came up with his notion of a secret rapture, the church understood the doctrine of Christ's return to be:
"Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever." I Thessalonians 4:13-17
No 1000 year reign. No rapture. No tribulation that doesn't involve Christians. No pre-trib or post-trib or dispensationalist fallacies.
The Lord's return will occur at a time we can't predict and will mark the end of history as we know it and fulfil 'his kingdom come' which at present is both 'now' and 'not yet.'
After this entry there was back and forth which amped up several notches when Dr. Larry Patrick jumped in:
Larry Patrick, THD., Pastor/Founder at Charis Chapel Bible Church
Peter,
You have presented a possible answer, but with a impossible association. True, the 5th feast happens before the 10 days of awe, but since the six feast is associated with the second coming, when Christ feet rest on the Mount of Olives, the fifth fest must correspond to a event prior to that. You have stated many times you do not believe in a literal 7 year tribulation, but the Feast seem to contradict your interpretation of the end times. Many have already commented, and correctly so, to your non-belief in the tribulation. But you must relate an actual event to the 5th feast as well as the second coming that is related to the 6th.
Since the 5th feast happens before the days of awe, the event must happen before the tribulation. Many, over the last 24 years, have associated this feast with the rapture, (Feast of the Trumpets), but I brought this up to show that some event must be associated to it since All other feast Days are associated to a specific event.
I'm sure you will find something to say to discredit me or what is presented here, but how long will you continue to reject the overwhelming evidence that I have read this morning, to prove that there is a tribulation, as well as a rapture in God's program.
Like Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 6 days ago
Peter Nagy, Author of Bible Study Book "The Bible I Thought I Knew"
Brother Larry,
Nobody is trying to discredit you sir. But, I must ask, how do we fit a tribulation period into a week or two of the Jewish feasts?
I was under the impression we will experience tribulation of some fashion or form until He returns, and some even think that He was talking to them about coming tribulation to happen in their day too.
The rapture, or the believers rising to meet Him in the air and escorting Him back to earth seems pretty valid, as well.
Larry Patrick, THD., Pastor/Founder at Charis Chapel Bible Church
Peter,
I will not try to restate what has already been so eloquently presented by so many others in this post topic. The Bible does present a 7 year period in human history that is called the "times of Jacobs troubles" or the "Great Tribulation".
However, as to the 5th feast, it is 7 days before the the 6th, the association is therefore established to the 7 years. that exist between "the event" of the 5th feast and the return of our Lord on the 6th feast.
Just a little food for thought.
Peter Nagy, Author of Bible Study Book "The Bible I Thought I Knew"
Is there a verse that explains the times of Jacob's trouble is a seven year period? Is there a verse that says the great tribulation is a seven year period?
Does that mean that seven years after one of the yearly 5th feasts, the Lord will come back for the 6th feast?
Michelle Enterline, Founder of Gospel of Peace Ministries
But Larry the Gentile church is a wild olive branch grafted into the common wealth of Israel. Therefore are one in the same.
Ephesians 2:12-13 (NKJV)
Eph 2:12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
Ephesians 2:16 (NKJV)
Eph 2:16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.
Ephesians 2:19-21 (NKJV)
Eph 2:19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,
20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone,
21 in whom the whole building, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord,
Ephesians 3:6 (NKJV)
Eph 3:6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel,
The Church is not a body of it's own it is grafted into Israel and they are not separate but one. We do not replace Israel we are grafted into its root. So when we talk about the 10 Virgins we are talking about the Israel the gentile believer in Messiah become part of the common wealth of Israel that I refer to as the congregation (church) of Israel.
Romans 11:17-27 (NKJV)
Ro 11:17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,
18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in."
20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins."
Back to the Rapture
No were in the bible does it talk about a 7 year tribulation in the end before Jesus returns. Danial is not a proof text it is so far removed from the so called rapture.
Read Revelation straight through over and over again at least 12 times out loud.
I pray that God will give all revelation of revelation.
Larry Patrick, THD., Pastor/Founder at Charis Chapel Bible Church
Dear Michelle,
Where to begin. First, the 70th week of Daniel speaks to a time of 7 years to finish the transgression. In the middle of the 7 year peace treaty, he (antichrist) will break his covenant. Revelation 11:2-3, which speaks of 1260 days and 42 months, and Daniel 12:11-12, which speaks of 1290 days and 1335 days.
Again, these days have a reference to the midpoint of the tribulation. An understanding of Daniel 9:24-27 is necessary in order to understand the purpose and time of the tribulation. This passage speaks of 70 weeks that have been declared against “your people.” Daniel's people are the Jews, the nation of Israel, and Daniel 9:24 speaks of a period of time that God has given “to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.” God declares that “seventy sevens” will fulfill all these things. This is 70 sevens of years, or 490 years. (Some translations refer to 70 weeks of years.) This is confirmed by another part of this passage in Daniel. In verses 25 and 26, Daniel is told that the Messiah will be cut off after “seven sevens and sixty-two sevens” (69 total), beginning with the decree to rebuild Jerusalem. In other words, 69 sevens of years (483 years) after the decree to rebuild Jerusalem, the Messiah will be cut off. Biblical historians confirm that 483 years passed from the time of the decree to rebuild Jerusalem to the time when Jesus was crucified. Most Christian scholars, regardless of their view of eschatology (future things/events), have the above understanding of Daniel's 70 sevens.
With 483 years having passed from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem to the cutting off of the Messiah, this leaves one seven-year period to be fulfilled in terms of Daniel 9:24: “to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.” This final seven-year period is known as the tribulation period—it is a time when God finishes judging Israel for its sin.
Now I need you to explain why Daniel is not a proof text for the tribulation. You spoke those words as a biblical scholar, so I must ask from where did you get your training. I don't do 12 readings to understand the word, I study one precept at a time. So please explain your statement, one precept at a time.
I will address the Church and Israel tomorrow, its late here and I'm tired.
Peter Nagy, Author of Bible Study Book "The Bible I Thought I Knew"
Pastor Larry,
All you did was parrot Hal Lindsey. Can you show us even one Bible scholar previous to 1830 and Irving/Darby that write of such a scenario? Let's look at the precepts you presented, one at a time.
Dan. 9:27 never states, makes a seven year peace treaty. Verse 27 never states, breaks a seven year peace treaty. Verse 27 never states, the temple has to be rebuilt for a third time. Verse 27 never states, animal sacrifices will begin again.
How can we go back 2,500 years and take part of a sentence completely out of context, change the meaning and say that it is meant for our future? We have a verse that is talking about Messiah, then Abra Cadabra all of a sudden, half of the verse is about an Anti-Christ, some 2,000 years in the future from the time frame (Verse 27) of the verse!
Without any indication, why would Daniel secretly be telling Israel about some Anti-Christ 2,500 years in their future, inserted into the middle of a Messianic prophecy?
If 69 weeks (483 years) lead up to Messiah’s arrival and He gets cut off (crucified) after 3 ½ years of ministry; isn’t the week He gets cut off in…the 70th week?
Since Messiah is the final sacrifice, He caused the sacrifice (oblation) to cease. Did you notice the 490 years is foretold as seven weeks and 62 weeks and one week? Nobody ever tries to put a 2,000 year gap in between the seven weeks and the 62 weeks, do they?
To put the 70th week some 2,000 years in the future is like putting bubblegum at the 35th inch of a yardstick, so it will measure whatever you want it to. This would also completely eliminate the prophecy and the only verse that accurately predicts the arrival of Messiah at year 483 of the 490; and the death of Messiah after 3 ½ years of ministry.
And, if Messiah had fulfilled 486 ½ years of this prophecy before He was crucified, wouldn’t there only be 3 ½ years left? After the cross; the Gospel went only to Israel first, and then later the Gentiles were included.
Remember when Peter delivered the first salvation message (Acts 10) to the Gentiles? That would be 3 ½ years after the cross, marking the end of the 490 years and Israel’s exclusivity to God. Why would anyone try to take this seven year period about Messiah (from around 25-35 AD) and postpone it for our future, with Anti-Christ now being the focus?
Arthur Shady, Evangelist
Rest assured that all Scripture will be fulfilled and it will be in God's timing, not ours.
Larry Patrick, THD., Pastor/Founder at Charis Chapel Bible Church
Sorry for the Delay Peter. Had to work on several things yesterday. I will respond to you today.Good morning
Peter Nagy, Author of Bible Study Book "The Bible I Thought I Knew"
Pastor Larry,
I found it quite interesting that neither, Wycliffe, Huss, Luther, Knox, Calvin, Tyndale, Newton, Wesley, Whitfield, Edwards, Finney or Spurgeon believed in a pre-tribulation rapture; because they all lived and died before 1830..... when Irving and Darby invented that whole imaginary seven year tribulation period scenario. Easy to look up and verify.
Pete
Larry Patrick, THD., Pastor/Founder at Charis Chapel Bible Church
Peter:
I don't know where to begin, I will do this by answering some of your more outrageous statements first.
"To put the 70th week some 2,000 years in the future is like putting bubblegum at the 35th inch of a yardstick, so it will measure whatever you want it to."
God predicted the fall of Satan, 4,000 before it happened. In 410 BC, Zechariah wrote the following: Zech. 14:16, And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 17, And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. That's at least 2400 ago, and it has yet to happen.
Daniel stated the following:
Dan. 2:41, And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. 42, And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken. 43, And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay. 44, And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
Again, well over 2500 years have passed, and this has yet to happen. Of course, you could be one of those who try and say, that all these prophecies have already happened. But that would let everyone know you belong to that group of false teachers who deny literal interpretation of the Book of Daniel, in fact, they try to date many of his prophecies to a much later time and say he wasn't the author. I'm sure you are not one of those biblical interpreters.
Bullinger wrote the following on Dan. 11:27, Daniels 70th week. long before Lindsey was born:
This last, or "one seven" of years, is divided into two distinct equal parts (see Ap. 90), and the division takes place in connection with an event which has no connection whatever with any event which has yet taken place. Messiah did not "make a (not the) covenant" of any kind, either with Israel or with any one else, at the end of, or "after" the sixty-ninth week; nor did He "break" any covenant three and a half years later. Man may "make" and "break" covenants, but Divine Covenants are never broken.
On the other hand: of "the prince that shall come" it is distinctly stated that he shall do both these very things (vv. Dan 9:26, 27). Hence, we are forced to the conclusion that this last seven of years still awaits its fulfilment; and this fulfilment must be as literal and complete as that of all the other parts of this vision and prophecy; for the end must be the glorious consummation for Israel of v. Dan 9:24, the complete destruction of "the coming prince" (the false Messiah or Antichrist), and the setting up of the Messiah's kingdom.
I have yet to find how you calculated the Messiah's death after 3 1/2 years leaving 486 1/2 of fulfilled prophecy. The fact is, that the last 7 days of Daniel's 490 days have not yet happened. Why is it strange for Daniel to speak on something that would happen in the last Days. Our Lord spoke of it in (Mat 24:15, When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) ). You can't equate this statement of Christ to the destruction of the temple by Titus in 70 A.D. When Christ spoke these words, He was address a question from His disciples about the signs of His setting up the kingdom.
Peter Nagy, Author of Bible Study Book "The Bible I Thought I Knew"
The abomination of desolation/one stone not left upon another has already happened in 70 AD, and what He was warning them about in Matt 24.
The word "prince" that is to come, simply means leader.
The ten toes, or ten kingdoms of Rome, and the little horn that grows up from them are no secret.
Do you remember (Dan. 7:24) the 10 horns? The Roman Empire was divided into ten Gothic tribes or kingdoms. There were Heruli, the Suevi, the Burgundians, the Huns, the Franks, the Ostragoths, the Visigoths, the Vandals, the Lombards and the Anglo-Saxons.
Do you remember the little horn (Dan. 7:8) that plucks up or subdues three kingdoms? When the Roman Empire fell, the papacy rose to power, still ruling and reigning from Rome. The papacy overthrew three of the kingdoms; the Heruli in 493, the Vandals in 534 and the Ostragoths in 553.
The little horn wears out the saints of the Most High (Dan. 7:25). Who else is responsible for torturing and killing as many as 50 million Christians and Jews than Rome and the papacy?
If you are waiting for some false religious system to rise and take Rome's place, still ruling and reigning from Rome; won't they have to reproduce everything the Catholics have already done?
What if the anti-Christ has been with us for 1700 years, and we don't recognize it? Now her protestant daughters perpetuate her blasphemic doctrines and practices, and then they deludedly think the rest of the world is sooooo un-biblical.
Larry Patrick, THD., Pastor/Founder at Charis Chapel Bible Church
Continued
Obviously Christ believed in Daniels prophecy, for He did not come in AD 70 to set up His Kingdom. Ah...... maybe you are one of those teachers that Paul had to put down who tried to teach that this had already happened. Now lets look at what you said Danile 27 doesn't say. You stated the following:
Dan. 9:27 never states, makes a seven year peace treaty. Verse 27 never states, breaks a seven year peace treaty. Verse 27 never states, the temple has to be rebuilt for a third time. Verse 27 never states, animal sacrifices will begin again.
And now lets look at what verse 27 says:
Daniel 9:27, And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Ummm......, it seems everything you said Daniel didn't say, he's actually saying. So I guess you do believe that Titus accomplished all this when he destroyed the temple in AD 70. Yet Christ spoke of this verse happening as a signal to the end of the age and the setting up of His kingdom. So, now to continue your belief system, Christ's kingdom is only Spiritual, not the physical kingdom spoken of by Zech. 14:16-17 and so many other scriptures that its not necessary to even quote them.
I will finish this later today, have a meeting now. Here is a link to George Peters work called "The Theocratic Kingdom", considered the greates work ever written on the subject.
http://www.christianbook.com/the-theocratic-kingdom-3-vols/george-
Peter Nagy, Author of Bible Study Book "The Bible I Thought I Knew"
C'mon now, reality check. Daniel 9:24-27 was prophesying to Jerusalem and Israel about their Messiah coming in about 500 years....not about some imaginary anti-Christ person coming in our future, some 2500 years away!
John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited
Dear Larry:
Only because Peter shouldn't be the only one to disagree with you...
The folly of your eschatology is that it is just over 180 years old. It's a little older than Mormonism, but just as fictitious. It is as intriguing as the DaVInci Code and an even bigger best-seller.
And like all error, its fault lies not in its leaves, but at its root. It denies God's omnipotence presenting the cross of Christ as God's Plan B; it denies His omniscience as though he didn't know the Jews in Jesus time would reject him as king, and reduces the majesty of Christ's return to a hocus-pocus of speculation that is the envy of astrologers everywhere.
Clearly the time-table of Christ's return is much simpler.
"Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever." I Thessalonians 4:13-17
No 1000 year reign. No rapture. No tribulation that doesn't involve Christians. No pre-trib or post-trib or dispensationalist fallacies.
One of the great challenges of scripture is to know what is literal and what is figurative.
When Jesus talked about plucking one's eye out if it causes us to sin, he had something other than our applying a knife to deal with the offending eye.
When he talked about loving our enemies, he literally meant 'our enemies.'
The trouble with much of contemporary eschatology is that it chooses to be literal about passages which are clearly figurative, at the expense of passages like 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 which are as literal as a stop sign.
The only reference in the Bible to a 1000 year rule is in the book of Revelation, a book we are to take most seriously, despite its being quite figurative. It is prophecy, quite visual, unspeakably majestic directed to people suffering for their faith, many at the expense of their lives. Its central message? Christ is the alpha and omega, the beginning and the end, the Lord of history, whose purposes can't be thwarted and whose death is our redemption and death's destruction. The Revelation is of the Lord who is and who is to come, and not a book of speculation as to where or when.
The Lord's return will occur at a time we can't predict and will mark the end of history as we know it and fulfil 'his kingdom come' which at present is both 'now' and 'not yet.'
Larry Patrick, THD., Pastor/Founder at Charis Chapel Bible Church
John,
I'm away from my study right now, but you are completely wrong. I heard the same 130 year argument when I proved the GAP was over 2700 years old, as recorded in Jewish literature as well as early Christian lit. I'm not going to waste time with you and Peter when your own words prove who and what you are.
"No 1000 year reign." :-). Please tell me, what will man be doing after Satan is locked away for 1000 years, or is that another place where we only use a spiritual interpretation?
Peter Nagy, Author of Bible Study Book "The Bible I Thought I Knew"
Larry,
What about the millennium time period? Revelation 20 is the only chapter in the entire Bible to mention the 1,000 years or millennium. If we look closely, the books are opened after a universal resurrection, with a separation and universal judgment of good and bad alike, immediately following the millennium (verses 11-15).
Why would there still be a beast after He returns (verse 4), and a choice to take its mark? This agrees completely with the Lord’s descriptions in the gospels about the separation of the good and bad fish, wheat and tares, sheep and goats after He returns.
It appears to be obvious; the spiritual Kingdom ushered in by Messiah is one and the same as the millennium. This millennium can only be the time period between the incarnation and the second coming, because judgment for everyone follows the event of His return.
John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited
Dear Larry:
So you need not argue with me any further on this subject, having had enough of me in the debate about women pastors, I have listed some excellent books on the subject of eschatology which are worth your investigation.
They have been provided by Brian Cunnington, an Evangelical Professor (now retired) who taught for years at Tyndale University College and Seminary in Toronto, Canada.
They are:
Archer, Gleason L. Three Views on the Rapture; Pre; Mid; Or Post-tribulation. Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1996.
Blaising, Craig, Hultberg, Alan, and Moo, Douglas J. Three Views on The Rapture: Pretribulation, Prewrath, or Posttribulation. Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 2010.
Frykholm, Amy Johnson. Rapture Culture: Left Behind in Evangelical America. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2004.
Gundry, Robert H. The Church and the Tribulation. Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1999.
McPherson, David. The Incredible Cover-Up: The True Story of the Pre-trib Rapture. Plainfield, NJ: Logos International, 1975.
Rossing, Barbara R. The Rapture Exposed: The Message of Hope in the Book of Revelation. New York: Basic Books, 2004.
For my take on the 1000 year reign, which is 'a-millennial' - it refers to the period between Christ's resurrection and his second coming. The figurative use of 1000 years is the same as its appearance in 2 Peter 3:8-10:
"Don’t let it escape your notice, dear friends, that with the Lord a single day is like a thousand years and a thousand years are like a single day. The Lord isn’t slow to keep his promise, as some think of slowness, but he is patient toward you, not wanting anyone to perish but all to change their hearts and lives. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. On that day the heavens will pass away with a dreadful noise, the elements will be consumed by fire, and the earth and all the works done on it will be exposed."
As 2 Thessalonians 2:3-8 instructs us - 'that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendour of his coming."
The eschatology is pretty straight forward and well worth investigating.
Gary Keasler, Free Download, 'Everything You Need to Know About the Last Days'.
I love these discussions. When i go into the Jails there are always questions about this even when that was not the sermon.
Couple of things.. if, in Daniel the Lord would have wanted to use 69 weeks then why did he not say 69 weeks until Messiah is cut off? There is no definite starting period for the issue of the decree... another oversite? No. I believe the 7 weeks has NOT been accounted for and the countdowns began when Jesus prophecied that Jerusalem being owned again by Jews (1967) was the end of gentile times. So 1967 + 50 (the start of the 50th year really) is 2017 when "Messiah the Prince" will close the Age, God will seal the 144,000 and America will be destroyed (Revelation 18), setting the stage for the exact scenario of the Tribulation. This goes along with the 5 Ages in the parable of the Laborers. 2017 - Jerusalems 50th anniversary, 2018 Israel's 70th anniversary, could there be a better time for the rapture and rebuilding of the temple.
Peter Nagy, Author of Bible Study Book "The Bible I Thought I Knew"
Notice that the 70 weeks or 490 years determined, are upon the Jews and upon their holy city, Jerusalem (Verse 24). Heptad is a plural word, but is used with a singular verb and is more properly translated, “Seventy weeks is determined,” describing the 70 weeks as one unit. Wasn’t this whole prophecy given to the Jewish people by a Jewish prophet about their Jewish Messiah?
Are you sure the 144,000 is a future reference Gary? Many people are expecting 144,000 Jewish “Billy Grahams” to start preaching the biggest revival of all time (Rev. 7:4).
Does Scripture really predict a big revival or a great apostasy before He returns? Did you notice that the 144,000 are the first fruits? (Rev. 14:3, 4) These are 12,000 Jews from each of the 12 tribes of Israel, and not to be confused with the group that no man could number. Is this a symbolic number for the first Jewish believers in Messiah, whose numbers have surely increased since then?
Doesn't James refer to the first Jewish converts from the 12 tribes (James 1:1, 18) to the new covenant and Messiah as “first fruits”? If the Ruach/Holy Spirit is supposedly raptured out with the church, how could the greatest revival of all time be possible? Anyway, if the 144,000 Jewish believers appear at the end this age, won’t they be the “last fruits”?
Gary Keasler - Free Download, 'Everything You Need to Know About the Last Days'.
Top Contributor
The 144,000 are specifically 'Chosen' by God, indeed making them the first fruits and they never leave the throne after that. Mt 20:16 shows that these 'Last' will be first because they were sealed (Rev 7:3). To see the position of the 'chosen' see Mt 22:14 - the called(the ones from the 1st 4 Ages) can be cast into outer darkness - the 'chosen' (the 144,000) cannot. Note that all the Ages are at the wedding feast so that feast will happen after the Tribulation, not during it as many believe... this follows with the parable of the Virgins where ALL slumbered and slept - they slept through the Tribulation period.
Hope this helps.
John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited
My last entry on this subject is a copy of J. Ryan Parker's review of the theologian Barbara Rossing's book: 'The Rapture Exposed' - see http://www.patheos.com/blogs/poptheology/2009/12/the-rapture-exposed/
"Hollywood has spent billions of dollars to visualize global destruction through natural and man-made disasters. Religious filmmakers have spent millions trying to visualize the rapture and the apocalypse.
In preparing for a lecture on blockbuster films and the apocalyptic sub-genre, a colleague recommended Barbara R. Rossing’s The Rapture Exposed: The Message of Hope in the Book of Revelation.
Rossing comes out swinging in the first line of the first chapter: “THE RAPTURE IS A RACKET”. She continues in her book to uncover its creation, less than two centuries ago and the damage that it has wrought in politics, ethics, and theology, particularly in the United States. Rossing points to its creation based on the vision of a fifteen-year-old Scottish girl, Margaret MacDonald, which was then amplified by John Nelson Darby, a British evangelical preacher and founder of the Plymouth Brethren. Darby shared his ideas about the rapture on numerous mission trips to America between 1859 and 1877. The strength, one of many, of Rossing’s text is that she takes what has become known as premillenial dispensationalism and surgically dismantles it due to its lack of any significant scriptural foundation.
Rossing takes a longer view of Scripture than rapture proponents…that is, she seems to be looking at how God has worked throughout Scripture rather than simply piecing together a handful of verses, many out of context, to create a much-anticipated time-line of rapture, destruction, and death. Along the way, she highlights criticisms of this theological worldview from all camps, liberal and conservative, evangelical and mainline, Baptist, Catholic, Presbyterian...
Rossing reveals that this view of God’s action in the world, and the hopes of many dispensationalists, is especially dangerous for residents of the Middle East, Jewish, Muslim, and Christian alike.
Therefore, roadmaps for peace actually become roadblocks for the rapture in dispensationalists’ minds. Thus, there is a sick obsession with and desire for violence to hasten Jesus’ second coming. However, Rossing contrasts this with what she calls “Lamb power,” the nonviolent way of God made manifest in Jesus throughout the New Testament and even in Revelation. She argues repeatedly that the Bible’s vision of confronting evil is through nonviolence, the epitome of which is Jesus’ willingness to die on the cross.
Contrary to the premillenial dispensationalist vision of the Bible and geo-political events, Rossing argues that Christians are called to a renewal of the earth, not to await its destruction. We pray this in the Lord’s Prayer: “Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.” She writes, “The Lamb is leading us on an exodus out of the heart of empire, out of the heart of addiction to violence, greed, fear, an unjust lifestyle, or whatever holds each of us most captive. It is an exodus we can experience each day” (142).
As a way of personal confession, I found Rossing’s book so interesting because I was raised in an environment of religious fear. Yet as I grew older and delved further into Scripture and experience, I realized that this worldview was contrary to what I believed to be true of God.
In The Rapture Exposed, Rossing has given us a passionate, thoughtful, and articulate critique of this heresy (as Bill Moyers calls it). She has also provided us with a beautiful, life-affirming ethic grounded in Scripture that can shape the lives we live today and bring truth to the statement that while many Christians are waiting for God to act violently, God is waiting for all of us to act non-violently."
Deacon Mike Chesley, Deacon of Archdiocese of Detroit
John is right on here. There was a recent book written by a Catholic with the same conclusions. dispensationalisim is a new by Darby and exploited in the Scolfield bible. For the many people who think of the Catholic Church as a version of the DeVince Code it can be intrigueing. Thre are some early Church fathers ( Catholic and Eastern ) that even appeal to a 1000 year reign, but the general consenus in the Church is that we have very little to say about it dogmatically. Most of what the Church says is what it isnt. ( dispensationist teaching) The Church believes there will be an anti Christ and that evil and good will battle and the Church will be there for the trials. ( no such escape ) But other than that, the Church is very wise to not try to make predictions.
Gary Keasler - Free Download, 'Everything You Need to Know About the Last Days'
John, i see both good and bad in what you (or Rossing) is saying. As an evangelical I approach people with love and the gospel even though i believe that God has stated that the time will come when He will pour our His wrath on the wicked(Rev 6:9-11). I don't believe that a lot of Christians have an addiction to violence, greed, fear and an unjust lifestyle... As for Darby, there were writings before him looking for answers to what it would mean when Jerusalem would be owned again by the Jews, so desire for knowledge about prophecy and the "secrets" Jesus talks about in Mt 13:35 has always been present. A lot of what Jesus says goes away if taken just as idle comments. (Mt 4:4) - Thanks.
When does the BIBLE say the "Rapture" of the Church will take place?
John Deacon, VP of Deacon InsuranceOne of the great challenges of scripture is to know what is literal and what is figurative.
When Jesus talked about plucking one's eye out if it causes us to sin, he had something other than our applying a knife to deal with the offending eye.
When he talked about loving our enemies, he literally meant 'our enemies.'
The trouble with much of contemporary eschatology is that it chooses to be literal about passages which are clearly figurative, at the expense of passages which are as literal as a stop sign.
The only reference in the Bible to a 1000 year rule is in the book of Revelation, a book we are to take most seriously, despite its being quite figurative. It is prophecy, quite visual, unspeakably majestic directed to people suffering for their faith, many at the expense of their lives. Its central message? Christ is the alpha and omega, the beginning and the end, the Lord of history, whose purposes can't be thwarted and whose death is our redemption and death's destruction. The Revelation is of the Lord who is and who is to come, and not a book of speculation as to where or when. To repeat Arthur's statement: 'no one knows the hour.' No one.
To root one's eschatology in this book alone, with complete indifference to more specific passages about Christ's return, has not only lead to bad theology/eschatology like Hal Lindsay's 'The Late Great Planet Earth', the horrific 'Chick' tracts, the monster money maker 'The Left Behind' series (truly worthy of being 'left behind') but a whole host of eschatological speculations that make horoscopes and celebrity gossip magazines look good.
Until 1830 when that crazy Darby guy came up with his notion of a secret rapture, the church understood the doctrine of Christ's return to be:
"Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever." I Thessalonians 4:13-17
No 1000 year reign. No rapture. No tribulation that doesn't involve Christians. No pre-trib or post-trib or dispensationalist fallacies.
The Lord's return will occur at a time we can't predict and will mark the end of history as we know it and fulfil 'his kingdom come' which at present is both 'now' and 'not yet.'
After this entry there was back and forth which amped up several notches when Dr. Larry Patrick jumped in:
Larry Patrick, THD., Pastor/Founder at Charis Chapel Bible Church
Peter,
You have presented a possible answer, but with a impossible association. True, the 5th feast happens before the 10 days of awe, but since the six feast is associated with the second coming, when Christ feet rest on the Mount of Olives, the fifth fest must correspond to a event prior to that. You have stated many times you do not believe in a literal 7 year tribulation, but the Feast seem to contradict your interpretation of the end times. Many have already commented, and correctly so, to your non-belief in the tribulation. But you must relate an actual event to the 5th feast as well as the second coming that is related to the 6th.
Since the 5th feast happens before the days of awe, the event must happen before the tribulation. Many, over the last 24 years, have associated this feast with the rapture, (Feast of the Trumpets), but I brought this up to show that some event must be associated to it since All other feast Days are associated to a specific event.
I'm sure you will find something to say to discredit me or what is presented here, but how long will you continue to reject the overwhelming evidence that I have read this morning, to prove that there is a tribulation, as well as a rapture in God's program.
Like Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 6 days ago
Peter Nagy, Author of Bible Study Book "The Bible I Thought I Knew"
Brother Larry,
Nobody is trying to discredit you sir. But, I must ask, how do we fit a tribulation period into a week or two of the Jewish feasts?
I was under the impression we will experience tribulation of some fashion or form until He returns, and some even think that He was talking to them about coming tribulation to happen in their day too.
The rapture, or the believers rising to meet Him in the air and escorting Him back to earth seems pretty valid, as well.
Larry Patrick, THD., Pastor/Founder at Charis Chapel Bible Church
Peter,
I will not try to restate what has already been so eloquently presented by so many others in this post topic. The Bible does present a 7 year period in human history that is called the "times of Jacobs troubles" or the "Great Tribulation".
However, as to the 5th feast, it is 7 days before the the 6th, the association is therefore established to the 7 years. that exist between "the event" of the 5th feast and the return of our Lord on the 6th feast.
Just a little food for thought.
Peter Nagy, Author of Bible Study Book "The Bible I Thought I Knew"
Is there a verse that explains the times of Jacob's trouble is a seven year period? Is there a verse that says the great tribulation is a seven year period?
Does that mean that seven years after one of the yearly 5th feasts, the Lord will come back for the 6th feast?
Michelle Enterline, Founder of Gospel of Peace Ministries
But Larry the Gentile church is a wild olive branch grafted into the common wealth of Israel. Therefore are one in the same.
Ephesians 2:12-13 (NKJV)
Eph 2:12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
Ephesians 2:16 (NKJV)
Eph 2:16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.
Ephesians 2:19-21 (NKJV)
Eph 2:19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,
20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone,
21 in whom the whole building, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord,
Ephesians 3:6 (NKJV)
Eph 3:6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel,
The Church is not a body of it's own it is grafted into Israel and they are not separate but one. We do not replace Israel we are grafted into its root. So when we talk about the 10 Virgins we are talking about the Israel the gentile believer in Messiah become part of the common wealth of Israel that I refer to as the congregation (church) of Israel.
Romans 11:17-27 (NKJV)
Ro 11:17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,
18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in."
20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins."
Back to the Rapture
No were in the bible does it talk about a 7 year tribulation in the end before Jesus returns. Danial is not a proof text it is so far removed from the so called rapture.
Read Revelation straight through over and over again at least 12 times out loud.
I pray that God will give all revelation of revelation.
Larry Patrick, THD., Pastor/Founder at Charis Chapel Bible Church
Dear Michelle,
Where to begin. First, the 70th week of Daniel speaks to a time of 7 years to finish the transgression. In the middle of the 7 year peace treaty, he (antichrist) will break his covenant. Revelation 11:2-3, which speaks of 1260 days and 42 months, and Daniel 12:11-12, which speaks of 1290 days and 1335 days.
Again, these days have a reference to the midpoint of the tribulation. An understanding of Daniel 9:24-27 is necessary in order to understand the purpose and time of the tribulation. This passage speaks of 70 weeks that have been declared against “your people.” Daniel's people are the Jews, the nation of Israel, and Daniel 9:24 speaks of a period of time that God has given “to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.” God declares that “seventy sevens” will fulfill all these things. This is 70 sevens of years, or 490 years. (Some translations refer to 70 weeks of years.) This is confirmed by another part of this passage in Daniel. In verses 25 and 26, Daniel is told that the Messiah will be cut off after “seven sevens and sixty-two sevens” (69 total), beginning with the decree to rebuild Jerusalem. In other words, 69 sevens of years (483 years) after the decree to rebuild Jerusalem, the Messiah will be cut off. Biblical historians confirm that 483 years passed from the time of the decree to rebuild Jerusalem to the time when Jesus was crucified. Most Christian scholars, regardless of their view of eschatology (future things/events), have the above understanding of Daniel's 70 sevens.
With 483 years having passed from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem to the cutting off of the Messiah, this leaves one seven-year period to be fulfilled in terms of Daniel 9:24: “to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.” This final seven-year period is known as the tribulation period—it is a time when God finishes judging Israel for its sin.
Now I need you to explain why Daniel is not a proof text for the tribulation. You spoke those words as a biblical scholar, so I must ask from where did you get your training. I don't do 12 readings to understand the word, I study one precept at a time. So please explain your statement, one precept at a time.
I will address the Church and Israel tomorrow, its late here and I'm tired.
Peter Nagy, Author of Bible Study Book "The Bible I Thought I Knew"
Pastor Larry,
All you did was parrot Hal Lindsey. Can you show us even one Bible scholar previous to 1830 and Irving/Darby that write of such a scenario? Let's look at the precepts you presented, one at a time.
Dan. 9:27 never states, makes a seven year peace treaty. Verse 27 never states, breaks a seven year peace treaty. Verse 27 never states, the temple has to be rebuilt for a third time. Verse 27 never states, animal sacrifices will begin again.
How can we go back 2,500 years and take part of a sentence completely out of context, change the meaning and say that it is meant for our future? We have a verse that is talking about Messiah, then Abra Cadabra all of a sudden, half of the verse is about an Anti-Christ, some 2,000 years in the future from the time frame (Verse 27) of the verse!
Without any indication, why would Daniel secretly be telling Israel about some Anti-Christ 2,500 years in their future, inserted into the middle of a Messianic prophecy?
If 69 weeks (483 years) lead up to Messiah’s arrival and He gets cut off (crucified) after 3 ½ years of ministry; isn’t the week He gets cut off in…the 70th week?
Since Messiah is the final sacrifice, He caused the sacrifice (oblation) to cease. Did you notice the 490 years is foretold as seven weeks and 62 weeks and one week? Nobody ever tries to put a 2,000 year gap in between the seven weeks and the 62 weeks, do they?
To put the 70th week some 2,000 years in the future is like putting bubblegum at the 35th inch of a yardstick, so it will measure whatever you want it to. This would also completely eliminate the prophecy and the only verse that accurately predicts the arrival of Messiah at year 483 of the 490; and the death of Messiah after 3 ½ years of ministry.
And, if Messiah had fulfilled 486 ½ years of this prophecy before He was crucified, wouldn’t there only be 3 ½ years left? After the cross; the Gospel went only to Israel first, and then later the Gentiles were included.
Remember when Peter delivered the first salvation message (Acts 10) to the Gentiles? That would be 3 ½ years after the cross, marking the end of the 490 years and Israel’s exclusivity to God. Why would anyone try to take this seven year period about Messiah (from around 25-35 AD) and postpone it for our future, with Anti-Christ now being the focus?
Arthur Shady, Evangelist
Rest assured that all Scripture will be fulfilled and it will be in God's timing, not ours.
Larry Patrick, THD., Pastor/Founder at Charis Chapel Bible Church
Sorry for the Delay Peter. Had to work on several things yesterday. I will respond to you today.Good morning
Peter Nagy, Author of Bible Study Book "The Bible I Thought I Knew"
Pastor Larry,
I found it quite interesting that neither, Wycliffe, Huss, Luther, Knox, Calvin, Tyndale, Newton, Wesley, Whitfield, Edwards, Finney or Spurgeon believed in a pre-tribulation rapture; because they all lived and died before 1830..... when Irving and Darby invented that whole imaginary seven year tribulation period scenario. Easy to look up and verify.
Pete
Larry Patrick, THD., Pastor/Founder at Charis Chapel Bible Church
Peter:
I don't know where to begin, I will do this by answering some of your more outrageous statements first.
"To put the 70th week some 2,000 years in the future is like putting bubblegum at the 35th inch of a yardstick, so it will measure whatever you want it to."
God predicted the fall of Satan, 4,000 before it happened. In 410 BC, Zechariah wrote the following: Zech. 14:16, And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 17, And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. That's at least 2400 ago, and it has yet to happen.
Daniel stated the following:
Dan. 2:41, And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. 42, And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken. 43, And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay. 44, And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
Again, well over 2500 years have passed, and this has yet to happen. Of course, you could be one of those who try and say, that all these prophecies have already happened. But that would let everyone know you belong to that group of false teachers who deny literal interpretation of the Book of Daniel, in fact, they try to date many of his prophecies to a much later time and say he wasn't the author. I'm sure you are not one of those biblical interpreters.
Bullinger wrote the following on Dan. 11:27, Daniels 70th week. long before Lindsey was born:
This last, or "one seven" of years, is divided into two distinct equal parts (see Ap. 90), and the division takes place in connection with an event which has no connection whatever with any event which has yet taken place. Messiah did not "make a (not the) covenant" of any kind, either with Israel or with any one else, at the end of, or "after" the sixty-ninth week; nor did He "break" any covenant three and a half years later. Man may "make" and "break" covenants, but Divine Covenants are never broken.
On the other hand: of "the prince that shall come" it is distinctly stated that he shall do both these very things (vv. Dan 9:26, 27). Hence, we are forced to the conclusion that this last seven of years still awaits its fulfilment; and this fulfilment must be as literal and complete as that of all the other parts of this vision and prophecy; for the end must be the glorious consummation for Israel of v. Dan 9:24, the complete destruction of "the coming prince" (the false Messiah or Antichrist), and the setting up of the Messiah's kingdom.
I have yet to find how you calculated the Messiah's death after 3 1/2 years leaving 486 1/2 of fulfilled prophecy. The fact is, that the last 7 days of Daniel's 490 days have not yet happened. Why is it strange for Daniel to speak on something that would happen in the last Days. Our Lord spoke of it in (Mat 24:15, When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) ). You can't equate this statement of Christ to the destruction of the temple by Titus in 70 A.D. When Christ spoke these words, He was address a question from His disciples about the signs of His setting up the kingdom.
Peter Nagy, Author of Bible Study Book "The Bible I Thought I Knew"
The abomination of desolation/one stone not left upon another has already happened in 70 AD, and what He was warning them about in Matt 24.
The word "prince" that is to come, simply means leader.
The ten toes, or ten kingdoms of Rome, and the little horn that grows up from them are no secret.
Do you remember (Dan. 7:24) the 10 horns? The Roman Empire was divided into ten Gothic tribes or kingdoms. There were Heruli, the Suevi, the Burgundians, the Huns, the Franks, the Ostragoths, the Visigoths, the Vandals, the Lombards and the Anglo-Saxons.
Do you remember the little horn (Dan. 7:8) that plucks up or subdues three kingdoms? When the Roman Empire fell, the papacy rose to power, still ruling and reigning from Rome. The papacy overthrew three of the kingdoms; the Heruli in 493, the Vandals in 534 and the Ostragoths in 553.
The little horn wears out the saints of the Most High (Dan. 7:25). Who else is responsible for torturing and killing as many as 50 million Christians and Jews than Rome and the papacy?
If you are waiting for some false religious system to rise and take Rome's place, still ruling and reigning from Rome; won't they have to reproduce everything the Catholics have already done?
What if the anti-Christ has been with us for 1700 years, and we don't recognize it? Now her protestant daughters perpetuate her blasphemic doctrines and practices, and then they deludedly think the rest of the world is sooooo un-biblical.
Larry Patrick, THD., Pastor/Founder at Charis Chapel Bible Church
Continued
Obviously Christ believed in Daniels prophecy, for He did not come in AD 70 to set up His Kingdom. Ah...... maybe you are one of those teachers that Paul had to put down who tried to teach that this had already happened. Now lets look at what you said Danile 27 doesn't say. You stated the following:
Dan. 9:27 never states, makes a seven year peace treaty. Verse 27 never states, breaks a seven year peace treaty. Verse 27 never states, the temple has to be rebuilt for a third time. Verse 27 never states, animal sacrifices will begin again.
And now lets look at what verse 27 says:
Daniel 9:27, And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Ummm......, it seems everything you said Daniel didn't say, he's actually saying. So I guess you do believe that Titus accomplished all this when he destroyed the temple in AD 70. Yet Christ spoke of this verse happening as a signal to the end of the age and the setting up of His kingdom. So, now to continue your belief system, Christ's kingdom is only Spiritual, not the physical kingdom spoken of by Zech. 14:16-17 and so many other scriptures that its not necessary to even quote them.
I will finish this later today, have a meeting now. Here is a link to George Peters work called "The Theocratic Kingdom", considered the greates work ever written on the subject.
http://www.christianbook.com/the-theocratic-kingdom-3-vols/george-
Peter Nagy, Author of Bible Study Book "The Bible I Thought I Knew"
C'mon now, reality check. Daniel 9:24-27 was prophesying to Jerusalem and Israel about their Messiah coming in about 500 years....not about some imaginary anti-Christ person coming in our future, some 2500 years away!
John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited
Dear Larry:
Only because Peter shouldn't be the only one to disagree with you...
The folly of your eschatology is that it is just over 180 years old. It's a little older than Mormonism, but just as fictitious. It is as intriguing as the DaVInci Code and an even bigger best-seller.
And like all error, its fault lies not in its leaves, but at its root. It denies God's omnipotence presenting the cross of Christ as God's Plan B; it denies His omniscience as though he didn't know the Jews in Jesus time would reject him as king, and reduces the majesty of Christ's return to a hocus-pocus of speculation that is the envy of astrologers everywhere.
Clearly the time-table of Christ's return is much simpler.
"Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever." I Thessalonians 4:13-17
No 1000 year reign. No rapture. No tribulation that doesn't involve Christians. No pre-trib or post-trib or dispensationalist fallacies.
One of the great challenges of scripture is to know what is literal and what is figurative.
When Jesus talked about plucking one's eye out if it causes us to sin, he had something other than our applying a knife to deal with the offending eye.
When he talked about loving our enemies, he literally meant 'our enemies.'
The trouble with much of contemporary eschatology is that it chooses to be literal about passages which are clearly figurative, at the expense of passages like 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 which are as literal as a stop sign.
The only reference in the Bible to a 1000 year rule is in the book of Revelation, a book we are to take most seriously, despite its being quite figurative. It is prophecy, quite visual, unspeakably majestic directed to people suffering for their faith, many at the expense of their lives. Its central message? Christ is the alpha and omega, the beginning and the end, the Lord of history, whose purposes can't be thwarted and whose death is our redemption and death's destruction. The Revelation is of the Lord who is and who is to come, and not a book of speculation as to where or when.
The Lord's return will occur at a time we can't predict and will mark the end of history as we know it and fulfil 'his kingdom come' which at present is both 'now' and 'not yet.'
Larry Patrick, THD., Pastor/Founder at Charis Chapel Bible Church
John,
I'm away from my study right now, but you are completely wrong. I heard the same 130 year argument when I proved the GAP was over 2700 years old, as recorded in Jewish literature as well as early Christian lit. I'm not going to waste time with you and Peter when your own words prove who and what you are.
"No 1000 year reign." :-). Please tell me, what will man be doing after Satan is locked away for 1000 years, or is that another place where we only use a spiritual interpretation?
Peter Nagy, Author of Bible Study Book "The Bible I Thought I Knew"
Larry,
What about the millennium time period? Revelation 20 is the only chapter in the entire Bible to mention the 1,000 years or millennium. If we look closely, the books are opened after a universal resurrection, with a separation and universal judgment of good and bad alike, immediately following the millennium (verses 11-15).
Why would there still be a beast after He returns (verse 4), and a choice to take its mark? This agrees completely with the Lord’s descriptions in the gospels about the separation of the good and bad fish, wheat and tares, sheep and goats after He returns.
It appears to be obvious; the spiritual Kingdom ushered in by Messiah is one and the same as the millennium. This millennium can only be the time period between the incarnation and the second coming, because judgment for everyone follows the event of His return.
John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited
Dear Larry:
So you need not argue with me any further on this subject, having had enough of me in the debate about women pastors, I have listed some excellent books on the subject of eschatology which are worth your investigation.
They have been provided by Brian Cunnington, an Evangelical Professor (now retired) who taught for years at Tyndale University College and Seminary in Toronto, Canada.
They are:
Archer, Gleason L. Three Views on the Rapture; Pre; Mid; Or Post-tribulation. Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1996.
Blaising, Craig, Hultberg, Alan, and Moo, Douglas J. Three Views on The Rapture: Pretribulation, Prewrath, or Posttribulation. Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 2010.
Frykholm, Amy Johnson. Rapture Culture: Left Behind in Evangelical America. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2004.
Gundry, Robert H. The Church and the Tribulation. Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1999.
McPherson, David. The Incredible Cover-Up: The True Story of the Pre-trib Rapture. Plainfield, NJ: Logos International, 1975.
Rossing, Barbara R. The Rapture Exposed: The Message of Hope in the Book of Revelation. New York: Basic Books, 2004.
For my take on the 1000 year reign, which is 'a-millennial' - it refers to the period between Christ's resurrection and his second coming. The figurative use of 1000 years is the same as its appearance in 2 Peter 3:8-10:
"Don’t let it escape your notice, dear friends, that with the Lord a single day is like a thousand years and a thousand years are like a single day. The Lord isn’t slow to keep his promise, as some think of slowness, but he is patient toward you, not wanting anyone to perish but all to change their hearts and lives. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. On that day the heavens will pass away with a dreadful noise, the elements will be consumed by fire, and the earth and all the works done on it will be exposed."
As 2 Thessalonians 2:3-8 instructs us - 'that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendour of his coming."
The eschatology is pretty straight forward and well worth investigating.
Gary Keasler, Free Download, 'Everything You Need to Know About the Last Days'.
I love these discussions. When i go into the Jails there are always questions about this even when that was not the sermon.
Couple of things.. if, in Daniel the Lord would have wanted to use 69 weeks then why did he not say 69 weeks until Messiah is cut off? There is no definite starting period for the issue of the decree... another oversite? No. I believe the 7 weeks has NOT been accounted for and the countdowns began when Jesus prophecied that Jerusalem being owned again by Jews (1967) was the end of gentile times. So 1967 + 50 (the start of the 50th year really) is 2017 when "Messiah the Prince" will close the Age, God will seal the 144,000 and America will be destroyed (Revelation 18), setting the stage for the exact scenario of the Tribulation. This goes along with the 5 Ages in the parable of the Laborers. 2017 - Jerusalems 50th anniversary, 2018 Israel's 70th anniversary, could there be a better time for the rapture and rebuilding of the temple.
Peter Nagy, Author of Bible Study Book "The Bible I Thought I Knew"
Notice that the 70 weeks or 490 years determined, are upon the Jews and upon their holy city, Jerusalem (Verse 24). Heptad is a plural word, but is used with a singular verb and is more properly translated, “Seventy weeks is determined,” describing the 70 weeks as one unit. Wasn’t this whole prophecy given to the Jewish people by a Jewish prophet about their Jewish Messiah?
Are you sure the 144,000 is a future reference Gary? Many people are expecting 144,000 Jewish “Billy Grahams” to start preaching the biggest revival of all time (Rev. 7:4).
Does Scripture really predict a big revival or a great apostasy before He returns? Did you notice that the 144,000 are the first fruits? (Rev. 14:3, 4) These are 12,000 Jews from each of the 12 tribes of Israel, and not to be confused with the group that no man could number. Is this a symbolic number for the first Jewish believers in Messiah, whose numbers have surely increased since then?
Doesn't James refer to the first Jewish converts from the 12 tribes (James 1:1, 18) to the new covenant and Messiah as “first fruits”? If the Ruach/Holy Spirit is supposedly raptured out with the church, how could the greatest revival of all time be possible? Anyway, if the 144,000 Jewish believers appear at the end this age, won’t they be the “last fruits”?
Gary Keasler - Free Download, 'Everything You Need to Know About the Last Days'.
Top Contributor
The 144,000 are specifically 'Chosen' by God, indeed making them the first fruits and they never leave the throne after that. Mt 20:16 shows that these 'Last' will be first because they were sealed (Rev 7:3). To see the position of the 'chosen' see Mt 22:14 - the called(the ones from the 1st 4 Ages) can be cast into outer darkness - the 'chosen' (the 144,000) cannot. Note that all the Ages are at the wedding feast so that feast will happen after the Tribulation, not during it as many believe... this follows with the parable of the Virgins where ALL slumbered and slept - they slept through the Tribulation period.
Hope this helps.
John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited
My last entry on this subject is a copy of J. Ryan Parker's review of the theologian Barbara Rossing's book: 'The Rapture Exposed' - see http://www.patheos.com/blogs/poptheology/2009/12/the-rapture-exposed/
"Hollywood has spent billions of dollars to visualize global destruction through natural and man-made disasters. Religious filmmakers have spent millions trying to visualize the rapture and the apocalypse.
In preparing for a lecture on blockbuster films and the apocalyptic sub-genre, a colleague recommended Barbara R. Rossing’s The Rapture Exposed: The Message of Hope in the Book of Revelation.
Rossing comes out swinging in the first line of the first chapter: “THE RAPTURE IS A RACKET”. She continues in her book to uncover its creation, less than two centuries ago and the damage that it has wrought in politics, ethics, and theology, particularly in the United States. Rossing points to its creation based on the vision of a fifteen-year-old Scottish girl, Margaret MacDonald, which was then amplified by John Nelson Darby, a British evangelical preacher and founder of the Plymouth Brethren. Darby shared his ideas about the rapture on numerous mission trips to America between 1859 and 1877. The strength, one of many, of Rossing’s text is that she takes what has become known as premillenial dispensationalism and surgically dismantles it due to its lack of any significant scriptural foundation.
Rossing takes a longer view of Scripture than rapture proponents…that is, she seems to be looking at how God has worked throughout Scripture rather than simply piecing together a handful of verses, many out of context, to create a much-anticipated time-line of rapture, destruction, and death. Along the way, she highlights criticisms of this theological worldview from all camps, liberal and conservative, evangelical and mainline, Baptist, Catholic, Presbyterian...
Rossing reveals that this view of God’s action in the world, and the hopes of many dispensationalists, is especially dangerous for residents of the Middle East, Jewish, Muslim, and Christian alike.
Therefore, roadmaps for peace actually become roadblocks for the rapture in dispensationalists’ minds. Thus, there is a sick obsession with and desire for violence to hasten Jesus’ second coming. However, Rossing contrasts this with what she calls “Lamb power,” the nonviolent way of God made manifest in Jesus throughout the New Testament and even in Revelation. She argues repeatedly that the Bible’s vision of confronting evil is through nonviolence, the epitome of which is Jesus’ willingness to die on the cross.
Contrary to the premillenial dispensationalist vision of the Bible and geo-political events, Rossing argues that Christians are called to a renewal of the earth, not to await its destruction. We pray this in the Lord’s Prayer: “Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.” She writes, “The Lamb is leading us on an exodus out of the heart of empire, out of the heart of addiction to violence, greed, fear, an unjust lifestyle, or whatever holds each of us most captive. It is an exodus we can experience each day” (142).
As a way of personal confession, I found Rossing’s book so interesting because I was raised in an environment of religious fear. Yet as I grew older and delved further into Scripture and experience, I realized that this worldview was contrary to what I believed to be true of God.
In The Rapture Exposed, Rossing has given us a passionate, thoughtful, and articulate critique of this heresy (as Bill Moyers calls it). She has also provided us with a beautiful, life-affirming ethic grounded in Scripture that can shape the lives we live today and bring truth to the statement that while many Christians are waiting for God to act violently, God is waiting for all of us to act non-violently."
Deacon Mike Chesley, Deacon of Archdiocese of Detroit
John is right on here. There was a recent book written by a Catholic with the same conclusions. dispensationalisim is a new by Darby and exploited in the Scolfield bible. For the many people who think of the Catholic Church as a version of the DeVince Code it can be intrigueing. Thre are some early Church fathers ( Catholic and Eastern ) that even appeal to a 1000 year reign, but the general consenus in the Church is that we have very little to say about it dogmatically. Most of what the Church says is what it isnt. ( dispensationist teaching) The Church believes there will be an anti Christ and that evil and good will battle and the Church will be there for the trials. ( no such escape ) But other than that, the Church is very wise to not try to make predictions.
Gary Keasler - Free Download, 'Everything You Need to Know About the Last Days'
John, i see both good and bad in what you (or Rossing) is saying. As an evangelical I approach people with love and the gospel even though i believe that God has stated that the time will come when He will pour our His wrath on the wicked(Rev 6:9-11). I don't believe that a lot of Christians have an addiction to violence, greed, fear and an unjust lifestyle... As for Darby, there were writings before him looking for answers to what it would mean when Jerusalem would be owned again by the Jews, so desire for knowledge about prophecy and the "secrets" Jesus talks about in Mt 13:35 has always been present. A lot of what Jesus says goes away if taken just as idle comments. (Mt 4:4) - Thanks.
Subscribe to:
Comments (Atom)
Perhaps the most persecuted Christians in America in the 20th Century were those Christians who walked with Martin Luther King.
King captured this beautifully in a sermon he preached on 'Loving our Enemies':
"To our most bitter opponents we say: “We shall match your capacity to inflict suffering by our capacity to endure suffering. We shall meet your physical force with soul force. Do to us what you will, and we shall continue to love you. We cannot in all good conscience obey your unjust laws, because noncooperation with evil is as much a moral obligation as is cooperation with good. Throw us in jail, and we shall still love you. Send your hooded perpetrators of violence into our community at the midnight hour and beat us and leave us half dead, and we shall still love you. But be ye assured that we will wear you down by our capacity to suffer. One day we shall win freedom, but not only for ourselves. We shall so appeal to your heart and conscience that we shall win you in the process, and our victory will be a double victory."
Persecution reveals whether our faith is genuine. It separates the wheat from the chaff, the real from the false, Christ from all the pseudo-Christs. So as much as we don't like it, bring it on and God help us to stand strong.
We need not fear those of other faiths, nor the diminishment of our rights. When we are weak, then we are strong, grace doing its perfect work of making Christ visible in our lives.
- Delete
- 2 days ago
Craig Cassatt likes thisI beg to differ on one issue. Those that Marched with Dr. King faced opposition suredly. A pastor I know who runs a church in Alexandria, VA but from Egypt: his mother was run down in the streets because of the work he is doing here in the US. Another Baptist pastor from Bethlehem was visiting and his father, a pastor in the Palestinian territory, was shot in the service that morning by Muslims. The 20th Century saw more Christians die for their faith than ALL centuries before combined. The 21st is stacking up to be bigger yet. The opposition we faced in the US in the 60s has little comparison to the killing, maiming, and raping that went on then and now in the rest of the world for those called by the name of Jesus. You are right in that it separates the wheat from the chaff and that God will help us to stand strong. I don't mean to come down on you as you are correct in your statements. I just had to discuss the Dr. King statement.
That may be the hardest persecution to endure. It was the persecution both Jesus and Paul experienced every step of their ministry.
As the Psalmist writes (Psalm 55:12-14)
"My enemies are not the ones who sneer and make fun.
I could put up with that or even hide from them.
But it was my closest friend, the one I trusted most.
We enjoyed being together, and we went with others
to your house, our God."
For the black churches that were burned down, with the deaths of their young children, with the crucifixes set on fire on their front lawns - the militant hatred came from people reading the same Bible, believing the same Jesus and justifying their actions by biblical text.