Grace and Law - Part 3

from the Global Pastors Network


John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited

Given there seems to be a divide between those who still want to live the law and those delighted to be free of the law to follow Jesus to proclaim and live out his grace... 
The question I'm ruminating about is: 
'What would the church look like were we to live according to his grace?' 

Two thoughts provoke this reflection, one from 2 Corinthians 8:9 
"For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sake he became poor, so that you through his poverty might become rich." 
and the other from a statement made recently by Pope Francis: 
"I prefer a church which is bruised, hurting, and dirty because it has been out on the streets rather than a church which is unhealthy from being confirmed and from clinging to its own security." 

I think the two complement each other - that when the church mirrors the grace of her Lord she becomes poor for the sake of people she serves and ministers to. 

I think it also explains why we as Christians are so tempted to cling to the law, even though it can do no more than condemn us. 
Somehow it's safer when we can say 'I am not committing adultery, I am not coveting another's property, I am obeying the Sabbath" - than to say, I am following Jesus in his fellowship with the hurting, the alienated, the imprisoned, the homeless, the guilty, the law-breakers, those caught in the sex trade, those whom the world deems as 'worthless, no-good, welfare bums - i.e. the ones Jesus refers to as 'the least of these my brethren'... 

Thinking of the rich young ruler's response to Jesus 'all these (the laws of Moses) I have obeyed since I was young' and the Pharisee's prayer 'I thank God that I am not like other men' reinforces our natural (i.e. carnal) and religious response when asked to answer for our obedience to God. 

But the better prayer is the publican's prayer 'Lord have mercy' - a prayer that doesn't change no matter how mature we become in the faith. If anything, judging by Paul's late in life confession that 'Christ Jesus came to die for sinners, of whom I am the worst" (note present tense of his confession!), we can't be surprised that the edict of 'sinner' remains no matter how obedient we are. 
'Lord have mercy' is the prayer of someone delivered from the law, who finds mercy and grace regardless - which is ever the freedom we are meant to experience in Christ, which is to spill over from our lives to affect every sinner we meet.

Oliver John, Author of the new book, Tithing - the financial disaster of Christians? http://alphawolfpublishing.com/religion/

Hi Arthur, please note the question mark (?) on the title: Tithing - the financial disaster of Christians? 

Christians will have to make that decision themselves.

Oliver John, Author of the new book, Tithing - the financial disaster of Christians? http://alphawolfpublishing.com/religion/

Thank you Samuel Patterson, for taking time to provide those verses, which can easily be used to support the tithing argument - that tithing is a burden and bondage to Christians, which should not be the case at a time of GRACE. 

I am not sure why your comments did not appear on this thread. Please try and re-post it, so that others can benefit from the readings: 

Acts 15:1-11, 

[__ Note,some Jewish brethren stressing "the deeds of the law" as a requirement for eternal salvation regarding people who had already received Christ as their Lord and Savior... 

1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren,and said, EXCEPT ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, YE CANNOT BE SAVED. 
____------------------------------------------------------------ 


Acts 15:22-24, 

22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren:------------------------------ 

Acts 15: 28 - 30, 

28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost,and to us,to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things.............................................. 

Galatians 5:3, "For I testify again to every man that is circumcised,that he is a debtor to do the whole law.............................

Oliver John, Author of the new book, Tithing - the financial disaster of Christians? http://alphawolfpublishing.com/religion/

The debate or discussion presents an opportunity for us to continue to learn from each other. I'm glad to be part of it. I hope other members of this group feel the same.

LOMANI UILOU, Minister of Religion (SPD) Limited

You are wrong John - the law that the "rich young ruler" mentioned was part of the 10 Commandments NOT MOSES'S LAW as you stated. 

Looks like there you have mixed up Moses' Law (known as Ceremonial Law) with the Decalogue (10 Commandments). May be that's why you misunderstand some of our brothers' commends. We are talking about the 10 Commandments which you mixed it with the Ceremonial Law (the one that is finished).

LOMANI UILOU, Minister of Religion (SPD) Limited

Bruno - I would kindly say again that you have misunderstood the context of these verses. 

The same Law that the apostle Paul named "the law of sin" is the same Law he named "the law of the spirit". It is the consequence of our choice to OBEY or DISOBEY THE LAW (10 COMMANDMENTS! NOT "CEREMONIAL LAW") that brings LIFE and DEATH. 

If you believe (you said) "the law is not for the Christian … only for the Jews" then why don't you preach that "worshipping idols or anything else and not God" … "adultery" … "stealing" … etc… is good. 

Christians should preach and live what they believe in. I wish you the best if you preach and teach that it is good to practice what stated above.

Robert Dallmann, Director at ChristLife, Inc.

I have no desire to earn righteousness through obedience to the Law... that is IMPOSSIBLE! My righteousness comes from the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. 

My position is that, it is not I who lives but Jesus lives through me (via the Holy Spirit, Gal. 2:20).

My problem is with the notion that Jesus living in me will lead me to be a LAW BREAKER. If Jesus lives through me and He is not going to violate the Law through me... will I (Christ in me) now lead me to break the Law? GOD FORBID! 

Anyone who thinks they are being led by the Holy Spirit to violate the Law is seriously wrong.

Oliver John, Author of the new book, Tithing - the financial disaster of Christians? http://alphawolfpublishing.com/religion/

Hi LOMANI UILOU, do we therefore take it that the tithing law belongs to the ceremonial laws, hence, is no longer needed in our churches? 

I ask this question because I am not a priest.

Oliver John, Author of the new book, Tithing - the financial disaster of Christians? http://alphawolfpublishing.com/religion/

This is Evangelist Samuel Patterson's post in full (as 2 separate documents): 

Acts 15:1-11, 

[__ Note,some Jewish brethren stressing "the deeds of the law" as a requirement for eternal salvation regarding people who had already received Christ as their Lord and Savior... 

1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren,and said, EXCEPT ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, YE CANNOT BE SAVED. 
____ 
[__ However,note Paul and Barnabas' reaction to such a notion in verse two.... 

2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question. 
____ 
[__The matter brought before the church, and the apostles and elders in Jerusalem... 

4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them. 

5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was NEEDFUL to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. 
____ 
[___The apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter ... 

6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. 
____ 
[___ After much disputing Peter reminded them of how God saved the Gentiles by their faith in the word of the gospel without the deeds of the law 

7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 

8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 

9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 

10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 

11 But we believe that THROUGH THE GRACE of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. 
____________________ 
____ 
[___ The issue is forever settled within this bible text ... note, Then it pleased the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas ... with letters by them after this manner, saying,
Like (1) Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 5 hours ago Evangelist Samuel P. likes this
 Oliver John
Oliver
Oliver John
Author of the new book, Tithing - the financial disaster of Christians? http://alphawolfpublishing.com/religion/

This is Evangelist Samuel Patterson's post in full (as 2 separate documents): contd.

Acts 15:22-24,

1. Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren:

1. And THEY WROTE LETTERS by them after this manner;The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.

1. Forasmuch as we have heard,that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words,subverting your souls, saying,Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law:to whom we gave no such commandment.

__________________
____
[___ Likewise, the Holy Ghost agreeing ...

Acts 15: 28 - 30,

1. For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost,and to us,to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols,and from blood,and from things strangled,and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well.Fare ye well.30 So when they were dismissed,they came to Antioch:and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle:31 Which when they had read,they rejoiced for the consolation.

_________________________

Galatians 5:3, "For I testify again to every man that is circumcised,that he is a debtor to do the whole law.4 Christ is become of no effect unto you,whosoever of you are justified by the law;ye are fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith."
By Evangelist Samuel Patterson

Simon Zelikman, at Emmanuel's Doorpost

Robert, 
Your............ 
""Anyone who thinks they are being led by the Holy Spirit to violate the Law is seriously wrong. """ 

I believe it is you who is seriously wrong, you are not Christ even if you think He lives in you, and you do not live every minute of every day by the Holy Spirit, and if you say and think you do, you are mistaken, and in great need of His Atonement! 

See if this His scripture helps you see the truth by His Holy Spirit, because if you say you don't sin, or that you will never sin again, then you are a ........................... 

Heb 2: 7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: 
:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. 
:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. 
:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 

Heb 12: 1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 
:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. 
:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. 
:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. 
:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: 
:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 
:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 
:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. 

1 Cor 2: 3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. 

2 Cor 7: 8 For though I made you sorry with a letter, I do not repent, though I did repent: for I perceive that the same epistle hath made you sorry, though it were but for a season. 
:9 Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing. 
:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. 

Eph 6: 5 Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ; 
:6 Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart; ............. 

Ph'l 2: 12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 

His Grace was not cheep for Him, and it is Not cheep or automatic for us, and He does Not automatically give it to those who think, or teach, it is cheep, and I believe the Word confirms this.

John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited

Dear Lomani: 
The distinctions you keep trying to introduce between ‘the law of Moses’, the ‘Decalogue’ or Ten Commandments, and ‘ceremonial law’ are not distinctions the New Testament makes. And if it did, it doesn’t negate the repeated contention by several who have contributed to this discussion that it is ‘the law’ regardless of whether ceremonial or Ten Commandments that Paul repeatedly insists that we are ‘no longer under.’ 
One proof of this is Romans 7:7-12 
‘What shall we say then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” But sin seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. 
For apart from the law, sin was dead…but when the commandment came SIN SPRANG TO LIFE AND I DIED. 
I found that the very commandment that as intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment deceived me and through the commandment put me to death…' from Romans 7:7-12 

So for those who make a distinction between ceremonial, moral and 10 Commandments law, which of the 3 is Paul referring to here? The latter, the 10th of the 10 Commandments. 
I can’t say it anymore emphatically than Paul does - when we try to live by the 10 Commandments sin springs to life and the commandments which were intended to ‘bring life actually bring 'death’ instead. 
No wonder Paul at the end of this chapter in despair cries out: ‘What a wretched man I am! Who can rescue me from this body that is subject to death? Thanks be to God who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!…

Simon Zelikman, at Emmanuel's Doorpost

Dear John Deacon, 

God's Law is never bad or death, it is flesh men who disobey that are. 

When a man proudly thinks and proclaims himself so righteous and good, while standing in solidarity with a party and all promoters of abortion, Gay rights, or no weapons rights, and so many other deceptions by a certain party and ideology in todays world of deception, and all this in the name of love and supposed common good; That man is ether dead to God, or he is correct and justified by that same Law, to believe and teach as he does. 
The only way we can make any kind of correct judgment of right or wrong is by the Law of God, and Christ did Not change any of the Law, because even the Law He did destroy He "rebuild", the ceremonial Law of the earthly Temple and its priesthood is now replaced and rebuild by Him in heaven, it is now His priesthood, Temple, and His Atoning Blood! 

The only way we know for certain, that those men who promote abortion, and other deceptions of this world as God's truth; Or if they just chose to stand in solidarity with a party that does; The only way we know these men Dead to God; Is by God's Law, and it is because God's Law, is the only Way we know this for a Fact, which is a very, very, good thing! 

There is a Great BIG difference between deception/death, and Grace/Truth by God's Law!

John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited

Dear Simon: 
Huh? 

Dear Lomani - part 2 
You are right to express your concern that our freedom from the law not be an excuse for licentiousness - just as any American who loves her freedom would be alarmed by someone who abuses that freedom to promote hatred against minorities. Freedom comes with responsibility. 
Christian freedom is first and foremost the freedom to do what is right. It comes with discipline and if that discipline is not to be 'under the law' what is it? 
It is the discipline of being 'under grace' - of living a life which reflects the grace and truth of Jesus working in and through our lives - a discipline which requires more of us than the law, which is more costly, demanding not only our best but our all - heart, soul, body, mind and spirit! 
But it is the love affair that makes it possible. 
Had someone held marriage out to me as a series of laws I would have to obey, I would failed miserably. 
But when in God's goodness a woman came into my life that literally took my breath away, marriage was no longer a series of obligations to be met, it was an all-out love affair which made the matter of faithfulness and sacrifice a slam-dunk affair. I was in love, how could I behave otherwise? 
So too when Jesus found me - what had become onerous to me in trying to obey the law, suddenly became my delight. 
But it was a delight not reflected in tablets of stone but in the pleasure of a Lord who transforms us not by nagging us into glory, but in the revelation of himself. 
It is when we see him as he really is that we come running into his arms, determined to do everything we can to please him.

When a church begins to count

Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen.  And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister. 
1 John 4:20,21

Ten years ago I was part of an energized group starting a new church in North Markham.
My responsibility was to lead 'Branch Out', a church venture to ensure we didn't get stuck in the pews.

Yesterday I was asked to give a brief retrospective of 'Branch Out' which may be of help to anyone looking to see their church more involved in the surrounding community. It works from the premise that a church doesn't really begin to count until the community around it is impacted by 'the love.'

Friendship Centre - east of Sherbourne on Dundas

The photo you’re looking at here is of The Friendship Centre, a drop-in for people living in the Dundas and Sherbourne area. It attracts all sorts of people - homeless people, women in the sex trade, people struggling with addiction or mental health issues and people who are frustrated at not being able to get a job.
The Toronto City Council in its efforts to stop the gravy train and cut the fat from government expenditures decided to close the Friendship Centre. 
But the people for whom the Centre was home protested - so vehemently - that the City hosted a meeting in the nearby church sanctuary where over 250 people crammed in. It was amazing. 
One of those who stood up to speak was a woman in her early 30’s who said that she had been a model for Vogue magazine when she got hooked on street drugs. In her words, ‘were it not for the Friendship Centre, I’d be dead by now.’
As the result of their protest, the City reversed its decision, provided additional funding and partnered with an agency called the Good Neighbours Club to keep the place going.

Branch Out began with the desire to so impact the surrounding neighbourhood that if for any reason our church had to close its doors, the surrounding community would protest so vehemently that they'd do anything to keep us going. Like the Friendship Centre.

The challenge for us in those early years was: we were not really a community based church.
Many who were attending Sunday services lived and worked miles outside the immediate neighbourhood. The people we were attending church with on Sunday were not the people we were spending the rest of the week with. 
So the question became: “How could we impact the community surrounding the church if most of us are only here on Sunday?”

We came to the conclusion that if we can’t bring the neighbourhood into the church, then we would have to bring the church into the neighbourhood - specifically into the neighbourhoods where we spend the majority of our time. We had to become like a Friendship Centre on wheels.

Which immediately catapulted our catchment area from North Markham to the GTA.

And we went crazy. Goodness ran wild. Branch Out became compassion on steroids - endeavouring to say yes to everything that was asked of us...
Some went to Participation House to lead worship services there. 
Some went to Pathways for Youth to connect with at risk youth in Richmond Hill and Markham.
Some went to Sanctuary to work with the homeless in the area south of Bloor and Yonge.
Some prepared and served meals to refugees at Matthew House, while others brought live music which had everybody dancing.
Some invited some of those refugees into their homes expanding who they now consider as family.
Farmer Mike Widdimore donated hundreds of pumpkins with the proceeds from their sale going to the Food Banks in Markham and Stouffville.
Hundreds of bags of good clothing were collected and distributed to women’s shelters and homeless shelters and inner city churches and missions.
Desserts were being served to over 400 homeless people in an old church near Allen Gardens. And they were sung to.
Worship services for the elderly at Unionvilla and for homeless people at the Scott Mission
TOB youth befriending street people downtown
used bikes being sent to Malawi
donated cars going to poor families through Wheels for Humanity
home cooked meals being delivered to people recently hospitalized and others driving people to doctors’ appointments
appeals being written to various levels of government for affordable housing and increases to minimum wage
And 10% of the church’s income was being re-directed to assist individuals and families in need, as well as to agencies like World Vision and Emmanuel International and local social agencies like the York Region Abuse Centre and Ronald McDonald House. 
All these and much more were being done by so many, too many to name - all with the intent of making this church a Friendship Centre in every neighbourhood we could - it was amazing.

Then we entered our park bench phase. 
The phase when we moved from steroids to whole wheat, from quick fixes and incidental encounters to really taking the time to work with those in need. 
David Chalmers and Owen Alton have been instrumental in this transition.
We got involved with agencies like Light Patrol, Teen Challenge, Young Life, Hands Across the Nations and other agencies that would allow for frontline involvement and relationship building, working with people to help them move from dependence to self-reliance.

It really was a park bench approach - Owen, Ian and others sitting with people taking the time to fully appraise their situation and then saying: ‘now let’s see together how God is going to resolve this!'
We started working with other churches to provide co-ordinated assistance to communities like Kin Village. This process in helping people get back on their feet proved to be so effective that Restore Canada was born…

So where do we go from here?
As far as we want to. Whatever it takes to get the surrounding community to beat down our doors were we ever to think of closing this place.

To close on an entirely personal note - there are four images I have when I think of Branch Out.
One is of Barb Dawson providing foot care to homeless people in the Regent Park area.
Another is of Andy Philip doing his magic routine to spell-bound audiences at Matthew House and Ronald McDonald House.
Another is of Judy Hazlett and Cynthia leading a conga line of Participation House residents in their wheelchairs to dance.

Billy O'Sullivan and Hercules Pilatos

The last is of Hercules Pilatos and Billy O’Sullivan, one Greek and the other Irish and whatever else Billy is.
One was in a desperate housing situation downtown, the other in a precarious living situation near Markville Mall. 
Both had known great success in their respective careers. 
Both had experienced severe turns in their lives that had them truly wondering if they’d ever survive. 
Both understand whatever money they have in their wallet is only theirs until they meet someone who needs it more.
Both came to our attention through members of this church - Hercules via Jyoti and Billy through Matt and Blaise.
Both of them thank God for us and we thank God for them.
They met for the first time several months ago at a service we do at All Saints once a month. And after a heart to heart conversation, Billy’s wallet was a little lighter.

This is what Branch Out is about. 
Friendship and help - among people who’d otherwise never meet.
Where individuals and communities are helped and God is praised.

Law and Grace - Part 2

From the Global Pastors Network

Question posed by Michael Nimz, Anabaptist Outreach Worker

What does grace mean to you? Once we have grace, what place does the law hold in our lives and in our churches? - continued...

LOMANI UILOU, Minister of Religion (SPD) Limited

We are only contempt and kill by the law because of NOT OBEYING THE LAW - For those who obey God's law they are not contempt, and this will apparently and finally be on the day of JUDGEMENT. Romans 1:18 "For the wrath of God is revealed … against ALL UNGODLINESS AND WICKEDNESS OF MEN WHO BY THEIR WICKEDNESS SUBRESS THE TRUTH". 2:6-13 "For He will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who DOES EVIL … but glory and honour and peace for every one who DOES GOOD … For God shows no partiality. ALL WHO HAVE SINNED WITHOUT THE LAW WILL ALSO BE PERISH WITHOUT THE LAW, AND ALL WHO HAVE SINNED UNDER THE LAW WILL BE JUDGED BY THE LAW… 

… FOR IT IS NOT THE HEARERS OF THE LAW WHO ARE RIGHTEOUS BEFORE GOD, BUT THE DOERS OF THE LAW WHO ARE JUSTIFIED" 

Looks like Paul is contradicting himself and his writings! NO! HE IS NOT! Some just don't understand his writing - especially miss the context. 

Romans 7 is one of my favourite passages. How could you skip earlier verses: 1 - 3 "The law has dominion over a man as long as he lives" - While we are alive we are obliged to obey the law. For one reason: NOT TO SAVE US but because we are obliged to and we will be judge (on JUDGEMENT DAY base on this law = 10 Commandments). 

What does it mean "dead to the law through the body of Christ" - it does not mean that the law is finished. It means "COMMITMENT TO OBEY THE LAW NO MATTER WHAT THE COST" - that is why the same author says in Romans 12:1 "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that YOU OFFER YOUR BODIES A LIVING SACRIFICE, HOLY, ACCEPTABLE TO GOD, which is your reasonable service." 

However, we seem to focus on Paul's writing and have ignored the Gospels and the other epistles. 1 John 1:8-9 "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 

What do we have to CONFESS if there is no sin, which means no breaking of the law? 2:4 "He who says 'I know him' but DISOBEYS HIS COMMANDMENTS IS A LIAR, and the TRUTH IS NOT IN HIM." 

It is important that we take into account and consideration all passages where LAW (10 COMMANDMENTS) and GRACE is mentioned so that we won't have the entire Scripture contradicting itself. May I suggest, if Paul's writing is not understood just focus on Jesus' entire teachings, it is very simple to understand. Above all, we have salvation only from Jesus and not any other. Stick with Jesus because misunderstanding of Paul's writing could be a painful consequent; worse of all is one teaches the wrong message - one would be responsible for the other person's blood (being taught with the wrong message).

Mbuye Otiti, Advocacy Minister at Visionary Believers in Christ Network International

Grace is the Divine Provision from God's Throne of Mercy and Truth Which is in Christ Jesus the Word Lord; by Which Jesus separates man from his Sin, its works and life; as He enjoins him/her unto Himself to Partake together with them, of His Divine Works of Grace and Truth to make them Become the sons of God according to John 1:-10-14, Romans 8:1-19. The Law is Spiritual; and It is Ordained of God in His Divine Grace; to make man realize and see his Sin in him; and then turn to Christ Jesus the Lamb; and identify with Him according to His Redemptive Works which He accomplished in Him on His Cross before the world was; which He Manifested Israel when He Came and Became Flesh.

John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited

Lomani: 

I love it when my best defence is provided by my opponent. Your reference to Romans 7:1-3 is the perfect summary of what I am trying to say. 

"Now, dear brothers and sisters—you who are familiar with the law—don’t you know that the law applies only while a person is living? For example, when a woman marries, the law binds her to her husband as long as he is alive. But if he dies, the laws of marriage no longer apply to her. So while her husband is alive, she would be committing adultery if she married another man. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law and does not commit adultery when she remarries. 
So, my dear brothers and sisters, this is the point: You died to the power of the law when you died with Christ. And now you are united with the one who was raised from the dead. As a result, we can produce a harvest of good deeds for God." Romans 7:1-4 NLT 

Taking exactly what those verses say - before Christ, I was married to the law. I was bound to it for as long as I was alive. But with Christ, I died to the law when I died in Christ. 
And now that I am dead to the law, who am I now married to? 
I am married to the one who was raised from the dead and as a result, I can - in the community of others who are also married to Christ - produce a harvest of good deeds for God. 

Put another way - when I wake up each day, from whom do I receive my marching orders? From the law of Moses or from the Spirit of Christ? Obviously the latter. 

So what purpose has the Law? The law is for the lawless. 
It is also an added measure that calls me to account if in my claim to be following Christ I am doing less than loving my neighbour. 
If I claim to obey Christ and am unfaithful to my wife, then I am breach of the commandment about adultery. But before committing adultery as the law of Moses framed it, I would have been in breach of Christ's command of having looked at another woman with lust in my heart. 
In short, if I am living in disobedience to 'the law of life in the Spirit', Christ himself will be the first to oppose me in advance of the Law. It is the breach in the experience of his love for me that will be the first sign of my disobedience. My experience of being cut off from his love will do more to bring me 'into line' than the law ever could. Hence the law came with Moses BUT grace and truth came with Jesus Christ. I rely solely on the latter. And if obedient to Christ, I fulfill the former. 

"May the words of my mouth 
and the meditation of my heart 
be pleasing to you, 
O Lord, my rock and my redeemer." Psalm 19:14 

When we love Jesus and seek to be obedient to him daily, we begin to experience his pleasure, 'to taste and see that the Lord is good.' 
It is only in that experience - in community with others - that we grow in both love and obedience. The Law is incapable of producing either love or obedience. How can it? It is only a schoolmaster whose one eternal lesson is 'all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.' Thus the Law leads us to Christ. Once with Christ, we need no other, we obey no other and we are only answerable to him, not only on the Last Day but daily in fellowship with those who walk with him.

Robert Dallmann, Director at ChristLife, Inc.

1 John 3:4 - "...for sin is the transgression of the law." 

Romans 6:15 - "What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? GOD FORBID."

John Swain, Volunteer Worker at Bethany Community Church Harpenden

No wonder the church is in the state it's in when we have ministers of religion, and christian directors plucking verses out which are out of context, and which are being presented through their personal legalistic filter. It is wrong to handle scripture by promoting doctrine from selected, isolated verses. Scripture must be seen as a whole, with scripture interpreting itself. Take the above comments from Robert Dallmann as an example. Is Paul in Romans 6:15 promoting law keeping as Mr Dallmann seems to be implying. NO. Not if you read it in context and as a whole with other NT teaching. He is saying that it would seem that grace gives licence to do anything we want to because we are no longer under the law. God forbid, says Paul. The law makes sin come alive, the strength of sin is the law, we are dead to sin and alive to Christ, therefore we ought to be displaying Christ like life, not sin. What should be coming out of our lives is the fruit that the Spirit within us produces, which is summed up in Jesus' commandment, which supersedes all the OT commandments which is to Love God and others as Christ has loved us. !
1 John 3:4 is correct. Sin is a transgression of the law. But read the context. We are dead to sin. Jesus came to take away sin. As believers we have had sin taken away, therefore the law has no hold over us or power to condemn. We are the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus, we are sons of God. Marvel at the love God has bestowed on us, that we are the sons of God, righteous before God and whatever we do, nothing can separate us from this love and our position in Him. Our quickened spirits are sinless, our soul's desire is to fall in line with our spirit, and, like Paul, we discipline our body to come in line with our soul and spirit. We don't let the sin nature in our bodies take control, but as 1 John 3:3 says we purify ourselves. 
To teach that we have been saved and given the Holy Spirit just so that we can try to keep the law better is a poor second rate gospel as far as I am concerned, and is not what I read in the scripture. 
Before Moses God did not impute men's sins to them, during the time of the law and the prophets God did impute men's sins to them, now those who are in Christ do not have their sins imputed to them. We are dead to sin, therefore dead to the law, we are alive in Christ therefore we are righteous, in right standing before a Holy God.

Robert Dallmann, Director at ChristLife, Inc.

I always love it when I quote the Bible, with NO COMMENTARY... and someone says... 

IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT! 

So John Swain, you advocate allowing Christians to sin? 

Here is another one for you to REJECT... 
______ 

The Apostle Paul said... 

Acts 24:14 - (AMP) - "But this I confess to you, however, that in accordance with the Way [of the Lord], which they call a [heretical, division-producing] sect, I worship (serve) the God of our fathers, STILL PERSUADED OF THE TRUTH OF AND BELIEVING IN AND PLACING FULL CONFIDENCE IN EVERYTHING LAID DOWN IN THE LAW [OF MOSES] OR WRITTEN IN THE PROPHETS;" 

Of course, the Apostle Paul agrees with Jesus, Who said... 

Matthew 5:18 - "For verily I say unto you, TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS, ONE JOT OR ONE TITTLE SHALL IN NO WISE PASS from the law, TILL ALL BE FULFILLED." 

Last time I checked, heaven and earth were still here, so according to Jesus NONE of the Law has passed away.

Anthony Verderame, Speaker ♦ Counselor ♦ Mind Coach ♦ Helping individuals & churches experience lives that thrive!

My heart breaks for His Body when I read threads like this. Living/walking in love IS living/walking BY HIS LIFE!

Charles King, Management Consultant & Christian Minister

Does anyone but me see a direct relationship to the following verses? 

Deu 7:9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations; 

Deu 10:12 And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul, 

Jos 1:7 Only be thou strong and very courageous, that thou mayest observe to do according to all the law, which Moses my servant commanded thee: turn not from it to the right hand or to the left, that thou mayest prosper whithersoever thou goest. 

Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. 

Jhn 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. 

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. 

It appears Jesus is saying the same thing that the Old Testament writers were saying! 

1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 

Based on 1 John 2:4 taken out of context, there may be a lot of liars!

Robert Dallmann, Director at ChristLife, Inc.

AMEN Charles... 

Hebrews 7:12 - "For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law." 

There HAS been a change in the Law. The change in the Law has to do with motivation and enablement! 

OT Motivation - to earn something from God, salvation, favor, blessings, etc. 
NT Motivation - LOVE for God and His people 

OT Ability - SELF - it was impossible to obey 
NT Ability - CHRIST IN US - it is possible to obey 
____________ 

Galatians 2:20 - "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but CHRIST LIVETH IN ME: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." 

So the question is a simple one... 

Jesus lives in and through me, is Jesus a LAW BREAKER? 

Is it conceivable that Jesus after the resurrection now allows for violating the Law?

John Swain, Volunteer Worker at Bethany Community Church Harpenden

Robert Dallmann:- 
I think you read my threads like you must read the Bible. I have not and never will advocate sin. Neither can you justify keeping the law in this age of grace. It is not a case of motivation and ability. It is a case that we now stand in a totally different relationship with God than anyone ever did in the OT. No one in the OT was born of the Spirit. We are. You need to stop using OT law scriptures to justify NT law keeping. If you read my last thread carefully you will see that I advocate righteousness and purity not sin. If you have got to keep the law to please God you have misunderstood who you are in God and the utterly fantastic relationship he has bought us into, through Jesus' sacrificial death and resurrection.

Robert Dallmann, Director at ChristLife, Inc.

John Swain, 

You said quote: "If you read my last thread carefully you will see that I advocate righteousness and purity not sin." 

My response: Since you seem to have a problem with the Bible's definition. How do you define "sin"? 

I like the Bible definition myself! 

1 John 3:4 - "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."

Robert Dallmann, Director at ChristLife, Inc.

John Swain said quote: "It is not a case of motivation and ability." 

My response: Do you really believe that Jesus living in and through you by the Holy Spirit does NOT change your ability to obey? Really? 
_____ 

Romans 6:15 - "What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid."

John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited

John Swain: 

I find your entries inspiring. As one who for years struggled, as did Martin Luther, with trying to live by the law, I was an abysmal failure at it. I had come to Christ but had found in trying to obey the law that I was bond to a servitude which had me persuaded that to be a Christian was anything but free. 

My route to finding freedom in Christ was a sequitous one helped in large part by reading Martin Luther's 'Introduction to Galatians' - where among other things, he introduces that incredible scriptural phrase: 'the just shall live by faith.' 

It hit me as it had him. I was seeking to be just by obeying the law rather than accepting that I am justified: by faith in Jesus Christ. To quote the great Charles Wesley line 'my chains fell off, my heart set free, I rose, went forth and followed Thee.' In following Jesus I am free, I am free, I am free! Utmost in that freedom, was the freedom to obey Him in a way I never could while trying to obey the law. 

The irony of grace, of living by the Spirit rather than by the letter of the law - is that even though I am held to a higher standard than the 10 Commandments; and to the more disciplined walk of 'sharing in his sufferings and in the power of his resurrection', I have truly discovered the way of Christ is freedom, whereas to live by the law was death. 

Robert and Charles are right in the sense that the law remains 'until heaven and earth pass away' but what they forget - and I can so easily forget - is that our relationship to the law changed the moment we died in Christ. 
We were once married to the law, but thank God in Christ we were baptized into his death and raised to newness of life, where we are no longer married to the law, but joined to Christ himself. 
In being Christ's, we are now called to greater things than the law could have ever taken us. In a word these greater things are to love our neighbour as Christ loves our neighbour, and to rejoice in the liberty of being sons and daughters of the most High - solely on account of his grace.

Robert Dallmann, Director at ChristLife, Inc.

Hi John Deacon, 

You said quote: "Robert and Charles are right in the sense that the law remains 'until heaven and earth pass away' but what they forget - and I can so easily forget - is that our relationship to the law changed the moment we died in Christ." 

My response: I did not forget this fact, I actually quoted the verse a few posts ago. Here is my post from above... 

"Hebrews 7:12 - "For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law." 

There HAS been a change in the Law. The change in the Law has to do with motivation and enablement! 

OT Motivation - to earn something from God, salvation, favor, blessings, etc. 
NT Motivation - LOVE for God and His people 

OT Ability - SELF - it was impossible to obey 
NT Ability - CHRIST IN US - it is possible to obey" 
________________ 

I agree that we are called to greater things than the Law, and this is where the motivation and empowering comes into play. 

OT Law says don't murder... 
NT Grace says don't even be unjustly angry... 

OT Law says don't commit adultery... 
NT Grace says don't even look at a woman with lust... 

Grace has higher requirements than the Law!

Rev Peter Sekyi, Founder/Senior Pastor at Word Foundation Centre International Ministry

Hi Robert,
Do you remember that Paul said this in defence of the accusation by his 
fellow Jews that he was preaching things that were not in line with Jewish 
beliefs? So the apostle as a natural descendant of Benjamin told the court 
he had followed everything the required of him as a Jew. That he believed 
in the law as much as they did. If you would recollect there was another 
occasion when he had gone to Jerusalem with some fellow believers and for 
the sake of the Pharisees and Scribes some of the believers in Christ 
including Paul had to go through purification to please the Jews. Acts 
21:15-28; Acts 15:1-29

Again, Jesus spoke to the Jews who had a hard time believing in him as the 
Messiah. Their rejection of Jesus meant there strict adherence to the law 
and the prophets though that could not save any of them. So in effect, 
Jesus said to them if you guys had rejected me for the law then know that 
every law would have to be fulfilled. The prophetic significance of the 
five books of Moses that had not been fulfilled yet would be and what 
remains had all been fulfilled by Jesus Christ. By implication, Jesus said 
to them whoever lives by the law shall be judged by the law nothing shall 
be overlooked. Take a serious note of the following: Romans 3:19-20, 21-31 
then let me know the basis on which both Noah and Abraham were justified 
since they lived before the law.
Bless you my brother.
Rev Peter Sekyi

John Swain, Volunteer Worker at Bethany Community Church Harpenden

Robert Dullmann. 
Let me ask you a question. Do you keep all the law. Have you ever looked on a woman and had lust in your heart? because if you have kept all the law to that level since becoming a Christian you are an exceptional man. If not then you are condemned by the law. 
The law continues until heaven and earth pass away, but not for righteous men.(1Tim1:9) 
I have died with Christ and been raised in newness of life, I have not been raised to the old life of trying to fulfill the law. Read Hebrews. Jesus did not come from the levitical tribe. He was not a priest of the Old Law. He was of the line of Melek Tzedek (King of Righteousnes) He bought a different sacrifice that instituted a different law, the law of Loving as Christ has loved us. As I said it is not about motivation and ability. Its about condemnation under the old law and No condemnation under the new one. The OT law was to show you that you could never, ever, ever be good enough The OT law made sin come alive in us and bring its consequence which is death. NT shows that Jesus Christ has fulfilled the righteous requirements of the law, we have died to sin, and Jesus is now able to impute his righteousness to us. 
1 Tim 1:5 shows that the end of the command ( the word end used here in the Greek means the conclusion of an act or state) is charity (the word for charity used here is agape) Love, out of a pure heart and a good conscience and of un-hypocritical faith. That's what true grace brings. Not a licence to sin, but a desire, out of a pure heart, to live Holy as He is Holy. 
Now read 1Tim 1:6-7 and tell me whether you come into that category or not. If you are teaching that we need to keep the law , after we have been saved in order for God righteousness to be imparted to us, then I believe you do come into that category. 
I say these things with a strong conviction that I am dividing God's word correctly, because I have seen Christians who have tried to live according to the law feel inadequate and condemned. However, when they have understood the truth of who they are and what they have in Christ they become empowered to boldly share their faith, they have confidence in God and his word, their desire to sin falls away and they move into new levels of operating in the Spirits gifting. Romans 8 truely becomes a reality for them.

Robert Dallmann, Director at ChristLife, Inc.

Hi Rev Peter Sekyi 

You said quote: "Do you remember that Paul said this in defence of the accusation by his 
fellow Jews that he was preaching things that were not in line with Jewish 
beliefs?" 

My response: So you are saying the Paul was lying to save his skin? 

Why did Paul quote the Law of Moses to the Gentile believers in Corinth in 1 Corinthians 9:8-9? 

1 Corinthians 9:8-9 - "Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also? (9) For it is written in the LAW OF MOSES, thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen? 

Seems odd that Paul would be teaching a useless Law of Moses to primarily Gentile believers. 
____________ 

As for Jesus, in just one chapter before, He quoted the OT to satan in self defense against His temptations in the wilderness. Jesus said... 

Matthew 4:4 - "But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, BUT BY EVERY WORD that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." 
____________ 

For me, I am sticking with Jesus... He said we should LIVE BY EVERY WORD from God, and that works for me.

LOMANI UILOU, Minister of Religion (SPD) Limited

Brothers in Christ - we don't keep the law in order to come to Christ (Bible says: "The law" (10 Commandments! Not the ceremonial law) "points us to Christ". We Come to Christ and through the power of and from Christ, we are enabled to obey the law. One last thing I like to remind us is: the ceremonial law (which includes all rituals in the sanctuary were only shadows, they were pointing forward to Jesus - these are the laws that were vanished and done away with) is not the same as the decalogue, 10 Commandments, - which does not change, not finished (Jesus said: "I did not come to abolish"), it "is good … holy … righteous … perfect … and stands forever." Why would one hate, don't like, reject, and get rid of something so "good … righteous … perfect … and holy". One could only have to be mad to do such thing. Apparently, the 10 Commandments has Godly qualities and I believe they are qualities that God likes us to have.

Robert Dallmann, Director at ChristLife, Inc.

Hi John Swain, 

You said quote: "Robert Dullmann" 

My response: Nice abuse of my last name. However, I am not the "dull" one here. I quote the Word of God and you do mental gymnastics to discredit what it clearly says. 
______________ 

You said quote: "Let me ask you a question. Do you keep all the law. Have you ever looked on a woman and had lust in your heart? because if you have kept all the law to that level since becoming a Christian you are an exceptional man. If not then you are condemned by the law." 

My response: You should ACTUALLY READ what I have posted (TWICE now) about the "change" in the Law. Please scroll up and find my post. 
______________ 

You said quote: "The law continues until heaven and earth pass away, but not for righteous men.(1Tim1:9)" 

My response: I agree. Paul says it this way in Galatians... 

Galatians 5:18 - "But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law." 

Does God allow you to VIOLATE His holy, just, and good Law at those times when you are NOT led by the Spirit? 

Or would you have us to believe that you are ALWAYS led by the Spirit? 
______________ 

You said quote: "I have died with Christ and been raised in newness of life, I have not been raised to the old life of trying to fulfill the law." 

My response: AMEN! So Jesus living in and through you, is Jesus in you a LAW BREAKER? Does He break the Law through you? 
______________ 

You said quote: "Read Hebrews. Jesus did not come from the levitical tribe. He was not a priest of the Old Law. He was of the line of Melek Tzedek (King of Righteousnes)" 

My response: LOL, I have written a book about Melchisedec. It is an attribute-by-attribute character study, comparing Jesus and Melchisedec. 
______________ 

You said quote: "He bought a different sacrifice that instituted a different law, the law of Loving as Christ has loved us. As I said it is not about motivation and ability." 

My response: Seriously???? You believe that you are NOT any more enabled with the Holy Spirit living in you???? 

WOW! That is pitifully sad! 
______________ 

You said quote: "Now read 1Tim 1:6-7 and tell me whether you come into that category or not." 

My response: This is an easy question... VERSE 8 

1 Timothy 1:8 - "But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;" 

Jesus living in me will NEVER LEAD ME TO VIOLATE GOD'S LAW! 
______________ 

You said quote: "If you are teaching that we need to keep the law , after we have been saved in order for God righteousness to be imparted to us, then I believe you do come into that category." 

My response: I teach that the Holy Spirit in me will NEVER LEAD ME TO VIOLATE GOD'S LAW... NEVER! 
______________ 

You said quote: "I say these things with a strong conviction that I am dividing God's word correctly, because I have seen Christians who have tried to live according to the law feel inadequate and condemned." 

My response: I am strongly convinced of this... 

CHRIST IN ME IS NOT A LAW BREAKER! 

Most people who proclaim the battle cry "we are not under the Law" are proclaiming a licentiousness. 

Here is what the Bible says about the grace of God and lawlessness! It does NOT get much STRONGER than this! 

1.Jude 1:4 - "For certain men have crept in stealthily [gaining entrance secretly by a side door]. Their doom was predicted long ago, ungodly (impious, profane) persons WHO PERVERT THE GRACE (the spiritual blessing and favor) OF OUR GOD INTO LAWLESSNESS and wantonness and immorality, and disown and deny our sole Master and Lord, Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One)."

Charles King, Management Consultant & Christian Minister

I am not sure why we are so hung up on the law versus grace, they are two sides to same coin. If no law then there is no need grace. The law does the same thing after salvation as it does before. It points us to grace (Jesus). We need to confess and repent of any sin and every we commit. Maybe why so many resist the Law is they do not want to serve anything! 

2Ti 3:15 -17 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. [16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

How about verse 17 above and how it seems to agree to Ep 2:8-10. 

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast. [10]For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. 

How about all of us examining our own hearts and see if we like to leave of verse 10 as we preach the gospel as if it is only Ep 2:8-9 and say that any works is of the law and not grace!

LOMANI UILOU, Minister of Religion (SPD) Limited

I am very surprise to have noticed that most of my comments have been deleted. Looks like the person who had deleted them don't like the Biblical Truth that is stated in them - does not like others to read them otherwise his false teachings and unbiblical could be understood by those who are searching for the Biblical Truth… If you don't like don't touch it. Don't hide the truth because it will be bad not only for you but for those you hide it from them. May God bless you as you teach your false and unbiblical message.

John Swain, Volunteer Worker at Bethany Community Church Harpenden

Robert Dallmann 
I would like to publicly apologize for the incorrect spelling of you name in my last comment. I did not intend to abuse your name, neither did I seek to disparage you in any way. It was a genuine typing error on my part. I did not set out to belittle you or defame your name in any way. For the offence that I have caused you I most humbly apologize.

Michael Nimz, Anabaptist Network Outreach Worker

Dear Lomani, your previous comments are still on this thread. They are just hidden because of the length of the this thread. 

Please keep up the good work, everyone. I am really enjoying this. It is understood that according the people of Israel in the 1st century that obeying the Law brought about salvation. Doing what was instructed by the Law helped one to earn salvation. We also have stated in so many different ways in this thread that with Jesus, grace gives us salvation. Grace, the gift of forgiveness and the help of Holy Spirit allows us to start to do good. With all of this being said, can the Law, instead of being used to define sin and death, be a tool for us to love our neighbour, to forgive and to be gracious to others, inside and outside of the faith? If we see the Law as a means to live out the example that Jesus showed us, how does that impact our understanding of Law and Grace?


Robert Dallmann, Director at ChristLife, Inc.

Hi John Swain, 

Apology accepted. Thank you.

Robert Dallmann, Director at ChristLife, Inc.

Hi Michael Nimz, 

To me it simply boils down to... 

* Is Jesus Christ a Law Breaker? (No - Hebrews 4:15) 
* Does Jesus live in and through me? (Yes - Galatians 2:20) 
* If so, will He break the Law through me? (No - 1 John 3:4) 
* Is there an expectation that true believers be obedient? (Yes - 1 John 3:7)


Bruno VAN de VLIET, National director of Every Home for Christ

Robert. not all logical issues are biblical, and in this case I think you are wrong. Christ is the fulfilment of the Law, so the law is over, He can't break the Law in you, that is something you do, don't blame the Lord for things people do. Jesus gave His Life to fulfill the Law, so please a bit more respect for our Lord.

Robert Dallmann, Director at ChristLife, Inc.

Hi Bruno, 

According to Jesus, the Law is NOT over... heaven and earth are still here; therefore, Jesus says NOT ONE jot or tittle has passed away. 

Matthew 5:18 - "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." 
_____________ 

You said quote: "He can't break the Law in you, that is something you do, don't blame the Lord for things people do. Jesus gave His Life to fulfill the Law, so please a bit more respect for our Lord." 

My response: Please, take the time to carefully read my post. You have misunderstood what I said. You make my point EXACTLY. 

If Jesus lives in us, and He obeys the Law, then we are expected to obey because of Him living through us. 

If you say God does NOT expect us to keep the Law, then it is YOU who is disrespectful of Jesus, not I. 

God still expects us to obey, "Thou shalt not murder, covet, steal, lie, etc."

Simon Zelikman, at Emmanuel's Doorpost

Michael, and all, 

Your ............ 
" We also have stated in so many different ways in this thread that with Jesus, grace gives us salvation. Grace, the gift of forgiveness and the help of Holy Spirit allows us to start to do good.""

Grace, does not "give" anything, it is not an entity onto itself, just as the Law is not a some thing, because it is many things, many laws, some Christ destroyed and others He did not. 

It is Jesus's Grace and Law, He is the Word/Commandment, and it is His Grace, it is He who gives Grace/Forgiveness, and we would not know what to seek forgiveness for if it was not for His Law, and God's Law was taught to men by God from Adam on, and I believe way before that, but that is another subject, and we know that the Law will be forever, because it is written in our hearts. 

God bless

John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited

Michael asks: 
"Can the Law, instead of being used to define sin and death, be a tool for us to love our neighbour, to forgive and to be gracious to others, inside and outside of the faith? If we see the Law as a means to live out the example that Jesus showed us, how does that impact our understanding of Law and Grace?" 

Great question. 
For me, no. I don't see the Law as a means to live out the example Jesus showed us. 
I suppose the law works in the sense it tells me what I shouldn't be doing - i.e. not worshipping false idols, not killing others, not committing adultery, not coveting what another has etc. etc. 
Frankly speaking - I am just not inspired to follow Jesus by a whole bunch of 'do nots.' 
I find them de-motivating, they 'kill me', trap me in the mire of my own inadequacy, paralyzed from doing any good at all. 

What inspires me to follow Jesus is the expanse of what he asks us, in Paul's terminology - his continual 'Yes' to the promise of his Spirit working in us. 
I find the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5-7) and Luke Chapters 6 & 12 the inspiration for a lifetime of lifetimes! 
I find the high water marks Jesus set in his own life and asks us to replicate of 'becoming poor that others might be rich', 'turning the other cheek to those who strike you', 'selling everything to provide for the poor,' 'taking up one's cross', 'loving the stranger and one's enemies', going out as sheep among wolves and peacemakers in the midst of violence utterly captivating. 
None of those things are asked of us by the Law, but Jesus does. In this Jesus is the great YES to all that God asks of us - YES not only by his example, and YES not only by his matchless words and commands but YES in his enabling us to say YES to all he asks of us! 
Two of the bright lights in the 20th Century - one Christian and the other Hindu - found their inspiration to turn the other cheek, to love their enemies and to be peacemakers in their time not from the Law of Moses, nor from the dictates of their own religion and culture, but from words of Jesus. They said YES to words they knew would mark them as unique to their generation. It is to God's glory that He gave them the strength to do what Jesus commanded despite their foibles and short-comings, and even in Gandhi's case, a very different theology. 

My sense of the hurting world that surrounds us is we don't have time to bicker anymore. Christ isn't awaiting for theological uniformity nor for even a common understanding among us about the relative merits of Law and Grace. 
What he wants from us is our YES to being empowered by his Spirit to serve others, most especially those who have less than we do - less income, less opportunity, less ability, less faith, less education, less friends, less community, less love, less peace, less resource, and less hope - and in relationship with them find life, freedom, faith and fearlessness in Christ.

LOMANI UILOU, Minister of Religion (SPD) Limited

John - the law was, is, and will never be a tool. All that it does is tell us what is not right to do. It is the "flesh" that makes you not desire to obey God's law and the law does not kill you - it is the consequence of disobeying the law that kills ("wages of sin is death"). The law was never meant to "save" or to "kill" anyone. It is with our own effort that fails us to observe the law. It is the power of and from Christ that enables us to observe the law. 

One other thing I'm concern with is that you seems to eradicate the law and on the other hand vindicate the law by exposing all the "good works" you are doing (save by good deeds). I just wish that we won't be too busy doing good to others ("love your neighbour") and have forgotten God ("Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind") which is the most important. 

Keep on doing the good works (God loves it) but don't forget God's side - to obey him.

John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited

Thanks Lomani for your encouragement. 
I am one of those people who believe that in loving one's neighbour one learns to love God and vice-versa. 
In sharing some of the insights of this group with one of my homeless friends, Lloyd Mangal, he said: 'I never liked the 10 Commandments. I just like the two Jesus gave us: to love God and love one another. I can handle those two, which if I remember correctly, is all we're supposed to do!"
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Law and Grace

From the Global Pastors Network

Question posed by Michael Nimz, Anabaptist Outreach Worker

What does grace mean to you? Once we have grace, what place does the law hold in our lives and in our churches?

Lewis Turner, Founder of Wheatland Ministries

Definitely Grace is a gift. I have made a study of the meaning of grace derived from the meanings of the letters, and I find a wonderful meaning of the word grace. Here it is: 
Word Study of Grace, looking at their meaning from the meanings of the Hebrew letters by Lewis Turner, Wheatland Ministries-notes-unpublished 
Grace חֵן 
Strong’s number H2580 
חֵ Chet - Fence, hedge, to separate 
ן Vav - nail secure 
Possible meaning from the letters of the word grace: To secure and separate with a hedge 
----What is very meaningful to me is that God's gift of grace secures us and separates us with a hedge--note--a hedge offers protection.

Charles King, Management Consultant & Christian Minister

All professing believers in Christ do not hold the same definition of "grace". Some see it as "receiving the gift" of salvation others see it as the "provision and offer" of salvation that we must receive by an active faith (trust & obey) that produces good works. 
In other words the Gospel is not just Ep 2:8-9, but Ep 2:8-10. 
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast. [10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. 
Christmas gifts unopened and unused are useless much as James says "faith with out works is dead"

John Swain, Volunteer Worker at Bethany Community Church Harpenden

Eph 2 says that it is by grace we are saved through faith. 
Grace. The word for grace in the Hebrew comes from the root HhN which mean Camp. The camp consists of the circle of tents that the family occupy. within this encampment is compassion, freedom and grace. Compassion and care for each other, freedom to be who you are and one of the family, and grace with each other, knowing each others faults yet still accepting them. God has extended his grace to us by inviting us into His encampment, Kingdom where we find compassion and care, freedom to be who He made us to be, and acceptance regardless of our faults and sins, in other word grace. We enter into God's encampment,by faith, through the entrance way which is Jesus. 

Outside the camp (His Kingdom) God had set up laws in order to train and teach us that sin has consequences. Prior to the law being give by Moses to the Jews God did not impute mans sins against him. The law was given to show that man could not reach Gods standard of righteousness. Prior to the law God did not impute mans sins against him. For example Cain murdered his brother, but God protected him from any revenge or judgement. After the law came, a man picked up sticks on the Sabbath, and God ordered him to be stoned to death for doing it. 

Those who choose to believe Jesus is the sons of God, believe on his finished work on the cross, and God's acceptance of His sacrifice as being sufficient for all mankind, by raising Jesus from the dead are no longer outside the camp (Kingdom of God) where law rules, but are inside the camp where grace rules. 

Does that mean we can go on sinning because we are now under grace and not under law? No. As Paul says " God forbid". Should we keep the 10 commandments? No. Will we want to "Love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength? Yes. Will we want to love our neighbours as ourselves? No. We will want to keep the new commandment that Jesus gave that we love one another as he has loved us. Yes.This new commandment is so much bigger than the 10 commandments, and all the other 600+ additional commandments. The new commandment encompasses everything.. We wont keep the new commandment because it will make us right with God, we will keep it because God's grace has been pored out on us and we have been made righteous through Jesus. we now keep the law, encompassed in the new commandment, out of relationship and desire, not out of fear of punishment. 

Jesus said I have come to give you life. The law only bought death. Even the 10 commandments are spoken of by Paul as a ministration of death. The old commandments are obsolete, The new commandment has superseded. This is what the book of Hebrew establishes in its teaching. We now live under grace, by faith which leads to life, not under law which leads to death.

Anthony Verderame, Speaker ♦ Counselor ♦ Mind Coach ♦ Helping individuals & churches experience lives that thrive!

As I was taught many years ago: Jesus gave His life FOR us to give His life TO us and to live HIS life THROUGH us!!! When we live/walk in the truth of this, we "grow in the grace and in the KNOWLEDGE [intimately knowing] of the Lord Jesus." Because He IS the fulfillment of the Law, all that is gloriously left is intimacy with Jesus and to live grace upon grace rather than striving upon striving upon striving (living by the law). As the last verse in Rom. 11 says, "For by HIM and through HIM and to HIM are ALL things!" It starts….continues…..and ends with Jesus! It's ALL Jesus!!!

Dr. John Boyd, Board Chairman at Calling All the Nations

Jesus, God Incarnate, was perfectly summed up by John as being "full of grace and truth." Show me someone who ALWAYS acts and reacts with grace and truth and I'll show you someone who truly knows Jesus! The exhibition of grace on our part requires death to our selfish selves. To walk in truth requires obedience to the One who called Himself the TRUTH. I believe the world is less impressed by our pedigrees or our standings in religious circles than by the graciousness and truthfulness exhibited in the way we relate to people, whether they be members of our congregations or the non-believers we encounter daily. Let's determine to know Jesus and then to imitate our perfect role model in all that we do and say. The world is watching!!!

John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited

With Christ came grace and truth which supercedes the law. Christ fulfilled all the Law's requirements, which means we now live according to the Spirit and not according to the Law. Christ has set us free, as GK Chesterton aptly put it: 'so goodness could run wild.' 
The law was a schoolmaster, a guardian to lead us to Christ. But now that Christ has come and fulfilled the Law's requirements, we live by the Spirit. 

Hence circumcision went out the window as did geneologies as did 'an eye for an eye'. 
Yes the law remains for the lawless for the same reason that civil law remains in society - to provide boundaries for judging right behaviour. 
But the Law on its own can never justify us, nor is it ever to be cited as our justification or means of justification. Otherwise Christ died in vain. He did for us what we could never do for ourselves, he became sin for us that we share in his righteousness. He is ever our justifier and justification. 

You can't read the Sermon on the Mount without realizing Jesus was changing the rules, at least the rules as Moses had laid them out. 
No longer were the people of God allowed to retaliate against their enemies, they were to love them instead. 
No longer were the people of God to curse other people, in fact Jesus warns against calling anyone a 'fool.' 
No longer could a man divorce his wife the way Moses had prescribed. 

Jesus in changing the rules was giving evidence that the old was passing away, that the One saying 'But I say unto you' was in fact the real Lawgiver, the Eternal One, the one who in fulfilling the law's demands had come to set us free. 

Ironically the freedom he gives us in many instances asks even more of us than did the law! Rather than give a tenth, we are to give everything if we are to be like our Master. 
The re-distribution of wealth as prescribed in the OT teaching about gleaning, tithing, restitution, debt forgiveness and Jubilee is replaced by an ongoing wealth re-distribution so no one is poor and the Jubilee never ends. 
We are to love our enemies which is much harder than what Moses had prescribed and Christ's strictures on divorce far more constraining than what Moses had stipulated. 
In reading through the Sermon on the Mount and the corresponding passages in Luke 6 and Luke 12, it really seems as though Jesus is exacting an even harder law than the law of Moses! 

But with Christ would also come grace - not just in the theoretical sense - but for the community as well. It marked the end of animal sacrifice, as well as the end of community 'stoning events' for people caught in adultery or idolatry. It shifted the emphasis of spiritual growth from aiming to be a 'Pharisee of the Pharisees' to showing mercy as God shows mercy. It moved God's people from being judges to being ministers of reconciliation. 

The difference has to do with equipping. When Moses gave the law, it was without the necessary empowerment of the Holy Spirit. The people had to do it on their own. Vital to the Law's role in God's dealing with humanity, was its very simple and yet humiliating lesson - we can't please God on our own! 
But with Christ's death and resurrection, the Holy Spirit is given and with the Spirit the grace and empowerment for us to live and behave as God's children.

Paul Bucknell, President & Founder of Biblical Foundations for Freedom

As someone has pointed out, grace has several levels of understanding. So does the term law. For some it refers to the individual laws of the OT, to others any commandment, while others think of the Old Covenant. The question becomes vague with lots of possible answers. Let me just first briefly reflect on the first question.

I love grace, God’s grace–the undeserving touch of kindness wishing us the very best in life. He calls us in numerous ways to live under His gracious care. There is no limit to understanding the depths of God’s love seen in His grace under which we are constantly showered. Check out one of our many free web resources on grace and works under a larger treatment of Grace and Graciousness: http://www.foundationsforfreedom.net/Topics/Grace/Grace014.html

Coming at this discussion of law and grace from a different perspective is: Reformation: Bringing long-lasting godly changes to our society – an expository treatment of Deuteronomy 21:15-21 on the the law can be properly understood and applied to our time. http://www.foundationsforfreedom.net/References/OT/Pentateuch/Deuteronomy/Deut21-0_Reformation.html

Raymond Driskill, Evangelist, at Wake Up Call Ministries

Grace is the gift from God that exempts us from being in sin and not knowing the law. Because of grace extended to us from the sacrificial death of Christ, we are forgiven. However we are not to try God on this grace and because of love we do the law. It's not the law that saves so we cannot acquire salvation by works however because of our obedience to God and Christ Jesus we show Him our love and with that love we can abide in Him and He in us.

John Swain, Volunteer Worker at Bethany Community Church Harpenden

Forgive me I have got this wrong, or miss-interpreted what people are saying in their comments, but it seems to me that the trend in these comments is that although grace has set us free we now do the law out of love, and that OT law scriptures are to be re-jigged and applied to our times. I believe some of the comments regarding the sermon on the mount are incorrect because people are not rightly dividing the word of truth. At the sermon on the mount Jesus was speaking as one under the law, to people under the law. For these people their religious system had developed so well that they now felt they were fulfilling the law by doing all their rites, ritual and sacrifices. "You say don't commit murder, but I say if your anrgy in your heart you have committed murder already." "You say don't commit adultary, but I say if you look on a woman to lust after her you have committed adultary in your heart." Don't you see what Jesus was doing? He was pushing the law to it's extremes and showing that you cannot fulfill God's righteous requirements through the law. The law is designed to bring us to the end of ourselves, and throw ourselves on God's mercy. When we do He graciously forgives and forgets. 
Question:- When did the new covenant come into effect? Answer:- not until the death and resurrection of Jesus. How can I be so adamant about this? read Hebrews 9:16-17. So Jesus' teaching, especially to the crowds was predominantly teaching under the law. His main grace teaching was to those who wanted to follow him. 
Prior to Jesus' death and resurrection there was no way anyone could be born again, born of the Spirit. So the law was necessary for containing sin. After the death and resurrection of Jesus all could be born again. Now there are two groups of people. Those who are in Christ and those who are not, those in the kingdom of light and those in darkness. For those in darkness the law is required to help contain sin, but for those in the kingdom of light the law is obsolete, finished, done away with. We no longer live by the law but by the Spirit. The only command Jesus gave was to love others and as he had loved us. If we are truly born of God we have the Holy Spirit who will lead and direct us. That's why it was so important for the disciples to wait for the infilling of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. They weren't equipped to go out into the world and make it on their own. They needed their regenerated spirit to be linked to God's Holy Spirit which would give them the necessary power, courage and direction to live God's way free from the law. 
Only when we put our Holy Spirit saturated spirit in charge of our soul does our flesh get dethroned and lose its power. This is how we crucify the flesh and live to righteousness.

Kurt Kelley, Bassist/Vocalist at Treehouse Productions. Community Outreach Worker, Volunteer at Nursing Homes, Churches, etc...

Grace is what God offered us through Christ on the cross. 
Grace is what we expect towards ourselves and our own sins. 
Grace should only be applied to those 'little' sins WE personlly struggle with. 
LICENSE is what we really mean concerning ourselves. 
However, JUDGMENT is applied towards those whose sins are different than ours. Those people dont deserve the same Grace that we have.

Dr. John Boyd, Board Chairman at Calling All the Nations

Grace is what God continues to offer all of mankind. He is the God of Grace. 
Grace is an unexpected gift from Almighty, All-knowing, Holy and Righteous God. 
The grace of God covers all confessed sin. 
Should we sin that grace will abound? God forbid! 
God judges all unconfessed sin with death for unbelievers and loss of rewards for believers. 
No one deserves the favor of God...that's why it is called GRACE! 
"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9

Anthony Verderame, Speaker ♦ Counselor ♦ Mind Coach ♦ Helping individuals & churches experience lives that thrive!

EVRYONE…….PLEASE…….READ JOHN SWAIN'S COMMENTS!!!!! PLEASE! Brother John, you took the words right out of my heart. You eloquently spoke the truth in love. HE is the vine WE are simply fruit hangers…..period!!! The life that flows through the vine & through the branches (you & me) is what produces the fruit. No matter how hard we TRY to produce the fruit (LAW) it is futile!!! We are to simply REST in the vine & it's life! The result will be that people will "taste" the wonderful fruit produced in our lives!!!! Hallelujah!

John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited

With respect to John Swain and Anthony's boisterous Amen of John's entry, I humbly disagree. 
Yes - for sure, grace is our acceptance despite our unworthiness. It is unmerited favour and the entry of God's spirit into our lives to do in us what we can't do without Him. 
But if we think it just that, we run the risk of what Dietrich Bonhoeffer so aptly called 'cheap grace' - a grace which confers favour without responsibility, without cost. 
Costly grace is the realization that what Christ expects of us is to be like him, to walk as he walked, to live out the high standards set out in the Sermon on the Mount. 
The Sermon is our constitution - the call to live in a way totally contrary to the world's way - the way of the cross, the way of loving one's enemies and laying down one's life for one's friends, the way of turning the other cheek, of selling all to provide for the poor in response to an invitation to carry a cross, to die daily... 
This too is grace - for whenever such activity exists among us, we recognize it for what it is and can only be - the work of the Holy Spirit among us, Christ in his people, the hope of glory. 
The Sermon on the Mount is far more than an amplification of the law of Moses - it is the signature of his kingdom, the character and holiness of the church when Jesus shines in her midst, the hope and light of the world. It is costly, it is all too rare, but any notion of grace without it is cheap grace, grace without salt, without flavour without impact in our world...

Anthony Verderame, Speaker ♦ Counselor ♦ Mind Coach ♦ Helping individuals & churches experience lives that thrive!

I appreciate your sincere desire to follow God & love Him as you describe. May I suggest you please reread my last comment regarding the vine & branches. The living and doing by the believer IS Jesus! We live BY His life. There is nothing good within us…..which includes our own efforts ("good works"). Again, I do appreciate your sincere & devout approach to the sermon on the mount, but biblically & historically it IS true that the New Covenant did NOT begin until Jesus died & rose from the dead.

I think we're missing the whole point. Salvation is a LIFE and DEATH issue NOT a sin issue. According to Col. 2:13-14 (& other places) Paul reminds us that while we WERE dead He made us alive & cancelled the debt. In other words, salvation is the imputation of LIFE for a dead man & that LIFE is Jesus. So, having been made alive we now live (by faith) by the life of the one who made us alive.

“I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me." (Gal. 2:20)

http://thenormalchristian.wordpress.com/law-vs-grace-lingo/

John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited

Lest we not be as disagreed as I think we are, I'm taking the liberty of quoting Bonhoeffer. In writing of Martin Luther's return from the 'cloister to the world', Dietrich writes: 

"It is a fatal misunderstanding of Luther's action to suppose that his rediscovery of the gospel of pure grace offered a general dispensation from obedience to the command of Jesus (i.e. The Sermon on the Mount)... 
"It was not the justification of sin, but the justification of the sinner that drove Luther from the cloister back into the world. The grace he had received was costly grace. It was grace, for it was like water on patched ground, comfort in tribulation, freedom from bondage of a self-chosen way, and forgiveness of all of his sins. 
"And it was costly, for, so far from dispensing him from good works, it meant that he must take the call to discipleship more seriously than before. It was grace because it cost so much, and it cost so much because it was grace. That was the secret of the gospel of the Reformation - the justification of the sinner... 
"In the depth of his misery, Luther had grasped by faith the free and unconditional forgiveness of all his sins. That experience taught him that grace had cost him his very life, and must continue to cost him the same price day by day. So far from dispensing him from discipleship, this grace only made him a more earnest disciple... 
"When he spoke of grace, Luther always implied as a corollary that it cost him his own life, the life which was now for the first time subjected to the absolute obedience of Christ. Only so could he speak of grace. Luther had said that grace alone can save; his followers took up his doctrine word for word. But they left out its invariable corollary, the obligation of discipleship...Costly grace was turned into cheap grace without discipleship." from Dietrich Bonhoeffer's 'The Cost of Discipleship.' 

Anthony, if you are saying the same thing, then we are agreed. If not, we are only the latest participants in a debate that began with Jesus' words 'Not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of heaven...'(Matthew 7:21) 
The Apostle John said it best: 'The man who says, "I know him," but does not do as he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him MUST WALK AS JESUS DID.' (1 John 2:3-6) 

Only by doing what God commands, do we give evidence of God's grace working in us. Grace holds us to a higher standard than did the law, but unlike the law, grace enables us to embrace its extraordinary cost, so that we live and walk as Jesus did.

MONICKARAJ ARUL PRAGASAM (Global Citizen Concept), DUBAI HEALTH AUTHORITY (DHA-P-0059763), DUBAI, U.A.E.

GRACE is God's Riches At Christ Expense. Christ Jesus has been expended for mankind by the greatest Lover of mankind, God the Father. Christ Jesus himself is the end of law. When one has come into Christ, he by default is placed into a higher plane, he needs to follow as hear the inner voice of the Holy Spirit Who has taken residence in Him, who speaks to Him through his spirit. Spirit to spirit by the word of God which in itself is spirit and life. At this level he becomes a son by ADOPTION, not a son by commandment. GOD BLESS YOU AND THE READERS OF THIS COMMENT .....

Anthony Verderame, Speaker ♦ Counselor ♦ Mind Coach ♦ Helping individuals & churches experience lives that thrive!

@John Thank you for the Bonhoeffer's quote. Here's a question. I agree that one who is made alive in Jesus will "obey" and display His love. How DID Jesus walk? He walked in absolute dependency on His Father. He made it clear that He did not GO….DO….or SPEAK unless the Father told Him. For us, God is always bringing us to realize our self-dependency in order to walk in total dependency. 

I don't get to worked up anymore, because I've discovered that like in my own life, the Law (in any form) WILL accomplish its two-fold work to (1) bring us to death (to our self-efforts/self-life) and (2) lead us to Jesus who IS our life!!! 

Either way, we are all still a unique, special part of His Body and we therefore belong to each other. 
Blessings!!!

John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited

The reason I raise the issue of grace being coupled with discipline is because we are so prone to being deluded. 
When someone says, "I am dead in Christ and yet Christ lives in me' - he is saying something quite scriptural but also something quite subjective. If by that confession he stands to the sidelines while his fellow citizens the Jews are being forced to identify themselves by a yellow star, the first step that would ultimately lead to their annihilation, you really have to question if his confession is valid or not. For clearly, Jesus would not step aside. 
We are to test ourselves to see 'if we are in the faith.' What is that test? 
If we are dead in Christ and yet Christ lives in us, how is that tested? 
By an objective standard - that applies to everyone who claims to 'walk as Jesus walked.' 
So what is that standard? 
The Sermon on the Mount and for that matter every other command Jesus gave. 
If we say we are 'alive in Christ' and killing our enemies, we are something other than Christ was. When we say 'we live and move and are active by His Spirit' and are not selling what we have to provide for the poor, we are something other than Jesus was. 
This is something Bonhoeffer was especially aware of. The strongest supporters of Hitler among Christians came from the German Evangelical Church, specialists in grace but as Bonhoeffer rightly called it, 'cheap' rather 'costly' grace.

Michael Nimz, Anabaptist Network Outreach Worker

So, let me see if I have gotten the main points; grace is salvation and law is death. This seems to be a bit antinomian for my liking. It also seems to exude a little Marcionite heresy. Grace needs to lead us to do the will of Jesus, but how does that helps us to grow in Christ's likeness? If Jesus said that he didn't come to abolish the law, what does it mean when he says that he fulfilled the law? If we are growing in Christ's likeness do we then begin to fulfil the law? Can the the law be seen as tools for grace? (Of course, not all laws can be used to exhibit grace,)

Kurt Kelley, Bassist/Vocalist at Treehouse Productions. Community Outreach Worker, Volunteer at Nursing Homes, Churches, etc...

From what Ive observed from many of my Evangelical cohorts down here in South Florida: 
Grace is: What we expect from God, and assume applies towards us, and our own personal sins and struggles. However, we do NOT extend that same grace towards those whos sins and struggles are different from our own. 
Or, to simplify even more, the attitude seems to be, 'Jesus blood only covers my kinds of sins, not YOURS.'

Simon Zelikman, at Emmanuel's Doorpost

His Grace, is His "forgiveness", His compassion and understanding for and of our flesh nature, it is ALL HIS, GRACE, it is not something you can claim full possession of, or think to own as your own. 
We are "saved" by His Grace when we ask for forgiveness/remission of our sins, and only if we have truth in the heart, and Faith in His saving blood of the Passover Lamb, that is what Passover is all about, it is death/sin passed us over. 

His fulfilling of the Law is talking about Remission of Sins, it is Atonement for sin, which was always washed away with blood, and it was done only through the Law of the Priesthood He installed and taught to His people, and when He taught the New Passover, and the cup with which we drink of His Blood in memory of Him, and the Bread we break as the Body of His Truth, the Word, ........... the Passover! 

He became the High Priest and the Temple rebuild, for all who would be His priest, this is the Law Fulfilled, and our only "Atonement" for Sin, and this is why the "works" of that old law no longer had power to save, because the Vail was rent and that old priesthood blood sacrifice had no more power to atone for sin, and those "works" no longer "saved" nor did they "Atone" for sin. 

We may strive to walk in His Grace, and we may have The Way into His Atonement for sin in His blood, but we do Not own Grace or His Atonement, and there is nothing cheep about it, the more you walk in His Truth, the more it becomes truly heavy for those who have truth in the heart, and remember what He did and suffered, so sinning continually is not possible for those who truly seek to walk in His Grace! 

Before His coming as the new Passover Lamb, and giving Himself as the Blood sacrifice for us, They had Faith in things seen, and the only forgiveness of sins possible for thousands of years as He taught His people by His Priesthood of Levite priests, but they all knew were God is, and where He would come from, and those who believed in Him then, knew of the True Temple and Tabernacle of God in heaven, which we seem to completely forgotten about, or why the Temple distorted was there by His Law for thousands of years, and for what. 

We are saved by Faith, which is believing in things unseen, and this is talking about His heavenly Temple and Priesthood, His Atonement of sins, for He is our Passover Lamb, and He is the Law Fulfilled!!! 

God bless, 

Cheryl Draeger, Pastor; Ecumenical Fellowship Church (House Church)

You will find this amusing. I just named one of my dog's puppies, "Grace". Not only is it a nice name, but one can meditate on the the many meanings of the word Grace. It's a nice though, positive, uplifting, and there can be many messages in this one word.

Simon Zelikman, at Emmanuel's Doorpost

Yes, this is all .......... amusing.

Robert Oliver, Pastor at KJV BIBLE BAPTIST CHURCH

Beloved believers, there are actually "3" Laws: The Law of Moses, The Law of the Spirit, and Kingdom Law. Which Law you belong under all depends upon the dispensation in which you exist. From Mt Sinai to the Cross the Jews (not Gentiles) were under the Law of Moses. From the time of the Cross to the Rapture of the Body of Christ both Jews & Gentiles who are Born Again are under the Law of the Spirit. From the beginning to the end of the Millennial Kingdom of Jesus Christ all occupants will be under Kingdom Law, which Law Messiah preached in Matthew 5,6, and 7 as He desired to bring the Kingdom then, but because the King was rejected the Kingdom was "postponed" until the 2nd Advent.

John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited

Robert: 
Only if you're a dispensationalist are you under 3 laws. 
If a Christian, then only one: the law of the Spirit which sets us free from the law of sin and death and free to fulfil the law of Christ which is to bear one another's burdens and to love one another as He has loved us.

Cherie Sheridan, CEO/President "On Track" Restoration Project

This morning the Lord had given me Ephesians 1:2. "Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ." God's grace is the ability to do what you could not do of your self and to fulfill it with His peace in you as you do it. It by God's grace that we do the will of the Father. People have this messed up. His grace is empowerment to fulfill your Kingdom assignment. It's time to think like a citizen of the Kingdom of God. We don't need God's grace to continually cover our sin. We need His grace to do His will. In doing His will we will not sin. It is necessary for the body of Christ to start walking as mature citizens and get out of the diaper interpretations of the word. We are seated with God in Christ in heavenly places. 

It's God's grace that empowers us to go through tough times and trials in His peace. It is God's grace that empowers us to make the hard decisions and see them through to the end. It is God's grace that keeps us moving forward as we grow in the things of God. 

Don't get stuck in elementary interpretations of God's word. We must become Christ-minded to do the works that Jesus did and greater works. To walk in the fullness of the measure of the stature of Christ.

Bruno VAN de VLIET, National director of Every Home for Christ

about the law, as in the law of Moses, has no say in the Christians life. We are no longer under the law, that's why Jesus died for, to free us from the law. The law is for the jews not for anyone else. 
When you refer to the law of love, of course that is applicable to us as Christians.

John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited

Michael:

Your entry had me racing to my dictionary!"Antinomianism: 
1. Theology The doctrine or belief that the Gospel frees Christians from required obedience to any law, whether scriptural, civil, or moral, and that salvation is attained solely through faith and the gift of divine grace.

1. The belief that moral laws are relative in meaning and application as opposed to fixed or universal. (See http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Antinomian controversy)

"Marcionite heresy" - originating with the 2nd Century Christian bishop 'Marcion', who "concluded that many of the teachings of Jesus were incompatible with the actions of the god of the Old Testament, Yahweh. Marcion responded by developing a dualist system of belief around the year 144. This dual-god notion allowed Marcion to reconcile supposed contradictions between Old Covenant theology and the Gospel message proclaimed by Jesus...Marcion declared that Christianity was in complete discontinuity with Judaism and entirely opposed to the Old Testament message. Marcion did not claim that the Jewish Scriptures were false. Instead, Marcion asserted that they were to be read in an absolutely literal manner, thereby developing an understanding that YHWH was not the same god spoken of by Jesus." (see http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Marcion)

When I became a Christian in my mid-twenties, it was like drinking pure water for the first time. Whatever I had tasted before grace came was contaminated - by agenda (my own or another's), by self-righteousness (strictly my own), and this pungent thing we Christians call sin, but somehow in my own context was something far worse. An inner pollution that made me smell real bad. 
Then Christ came and like the Bible says: everything around me became new. A new creation, a new life, a new reason for living, a new love for my neighbour and for God.

But as renewed as I was, it didn't have much bearing on my driving habits nor on my willingness to pay my car insurance. My poor insurance agent, would patiently call me every month to persuade me that I ought to pay my premiums. I was short with him, even though my public confession of Christ quite vocal. 
And then a new manifestation of grace appeared. My driver's license got revoked. I was driving a transit bus full of passengers when I ran through a red light and the police pulled me over and that was it for my bus driving career. 
It isn't hard for me to recall the mindset that governed my early days in the faith but definitely I had bought hook, line and sinker into both the antinomian and Marcion heresies. I was above the law (that of Moses, Christ's law and civil law) because Christ had saved me.

Six months later after barely passing my driver's reinstatement test, I approached over a dozen insurance brokers and companies - only to have all of them decline me for insurance. 
Finally in desperation, I called the broker who had so patiently endured my constant rebuff and arrogance and asked him sheepishly, if he might be agreeable to having me as a client again. 
Grace of all graces, he accepted me as though a son and needless to say I paid every premium he sent thereafter as though heaven would be denied me if I didn’t.

Not only did his kindness to me entirely implode my notions of grace, and taught me that grace was both an unmerited gift and an unbelievable/joyous responsibility; it has profoundly shaped the way I have done business ever since. With bus driving no longer a career option, I went into the insurance field instead and although I have not yet attained the standard set by that kind broker of years ago, nor even less the standard Jesus calls me to as Lord, I have had an enduring soft spot for people who don't pay their premiums and who insist the rules don't apply to them.