End time theology

These were my contributions to this Global Pastors Network on this topic:

When does the BIBLE say the "Rapture" of the Church will take place?

Bishop Johannes BrandtBishop bei International Church of Acts

John Deacon, VP of Deacon Insurance

One of the great challenges of scripture is to know what is literal and what is figurative.

When Jesus talked about plucking one's eye out if it causes us to sin, he had something other than our applying a knife to deal with the offending eye. 
When he talked about loving our enemies, he literally meant 'our enemies.'

The trouble with much of contemporary eschatology is that it chooses to be literal about passages which are clearly figurative, at the expense of passages which are as literal as a stop sign. 
The only reference in the Bible to a 1000 year rule is in the book of Revelation, a book we are to take most seriously, despite its being quite figurative. It is prophecy, quite visual, unspeakably majestic directed to people suffering for their faith, many at the expense of their lives. Its central message? Christ is the alpha and omega, the beginning and the end, the Lord of history, whose purposes can't be thwarted and whose death is our redemption and death's destruction. The Revelation is of the Lord who is and who is to come, and not a book of speculation as to where or when. To repeat Arthur's statement: 'no one knows the hour.' No one.

To root one's eschatology in this book alone, with complete indifference to more specific passages about Christ's return, has not only lead to bad theology/eschatology like Hal Lindsay's 'The Late Great Planet Earth', the horrific 'Chick' tracts, the monster money maker 'The Left Behind' series (truly worthy of being 'left behind') but a whole host of eschatological speculations that make horoscopes and celebrity gossip magazines look good.

Until 1830 when that crazy Darby guy came up with his notion of a secret rapture, the church understood the doctrine of Christ's return to be: 
"Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever." I Thessalonians 4:13-17 
No 1000 year reign. No rapture. No tribulation that doesn't involve Christians. No pre-trib or post-trib or dispensationalist fallacies.

The Lord's return will occur at a time we can't predict and will mark the end of history as we know it and fulfil 'his kingdom come' which at present is both 'now' and 'not yet.'

After this entry there was back and forth which amped up several notches when Dr. Larry Patrick jumped in:

Larry Patrick, THD., Pastor/Founder at Charis Chapel Bible Church

Peter, 

You have presented a possible answer, but with a impossible association. True, the 5th feast happens before the 10 days of awe, but since the six feast is associated with the second coming, when Christ feet rest on the Mount of Olives, the fifth fest must correspond to a event prior to that. You have stated many times you do not believe in a literal 7 year tribulation, but the Feast seem to contradict your interpretation of the end times. Many have already commented, and correctly so, to your non-belief in the tribulation. But you must relate an actual event to the 5th feast as well as the second coming that is related to the 6th. 

Since the 5th feast happens before the days of awe, the event must happen before the tribulation. Many, over the last 24 years, have associated this feast with the rapture, (Feast of the Trumpets), but I brought this up to show that some event must be associated to it since All other feast Days are associated to a specific event. 

I'm sure you will find something to say to discredit me or what is presented here, but how long will you continue to reject the overwhelming evidence that I have read this morning, to prove that there is a tribulation, as well as a rapture in God's program.
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Peter Nagy, Author of Bible Study Book "The Bible I Thought I Knew"

Brother Larry, 
Nobody is trying to discredit you sir. But, I must ask, how do we fit a tribulation period into a week or two of the Jewish feasts? 

I was under the impression we will experience tribulation of some fashion or form until He returns, and some even think that He was talking to them about coming tribulation to happen in their day too. 

The rapture, or the believers rising to meet Him in the air and escorting Him back to earth seems pretty valid, as well.

Larry Patrick, THD., Pastor/Founder at Charis Chapel Bible Church

Peter, 

I will not try to restate what has already been so eloquently presented by so many others in this post topic. The Bible does present a 7 year period in human history that is called the "times of Jacobs troubles" or the "Great Tribulation". 

However, as to the 5th feast, it is 7 days before the the 6th, the association is therefore established to the 7 years. that exist between "the event" of the 5th feast and the return of our Lord on the 6th feast. 

Just a little food for thought.

Peter Nagy, Author of Bible Study Book "The Bible I Thought I Knew"

Is there a verse that explains the times of Jacob's trouble is a seven year period? Is there a verse that says the great tribulation is a seven year period? 

Does that mean that seven years after one of the yearly 5th feasts, the Lord will come back for the 6th feast?

Michelle Enterline, Founder of Gospel of Peace Ministries

But Larry the Gentile church is a wild olive branch grafted into the common wealth of Israel. Therefore are one in the same. 

Ephesians 2:12-13 (NKJV) 
Eph 2:12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 

Ephesians 2:16 (NKJV) 
Eph 2:16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. 

Ephesians 2:19-21 (NKJV) 
Eph 2:19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 
20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone, 
21 in whom the whole building, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 
Ephesians 3:6 (NKJV) 
Eph 3:6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 

The Church is not a body of it's own it is grafted into Israel and they are not separate but one. We do not replace Israel we are grafted into its root. So when we talk about the 10 Virgins we are talking about the Israel the gentile believer in Messiah become part of the common wealth of Israel that I refer to as the congregation (church) of Israel. 

Romans 11:17-27 (NKJV) 
Ro 11:17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,
18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. 
19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in." 
20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 
22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 
23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 
24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? 
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 
26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; 
27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins." 

Back to the Rapture 
No were in the bible does it talk about a 7 year tribulation in the end before Jesus returns. Danial is not a proof text it is so far removed from the so called rapture. 
Read Revelation straight through over and over again at least 12 times out loud. 
I pray that God will give all revelation of revelation.

Larry Patrick, THD., Pastor/Founder at Charis Chapel Bible Church

Dear Michelle,

Where to begin. First, the 70th week of Daniel speaks to a time of 7 years to finish the transgression. In the middle of the 7 year peace treaty, he (antichrist) will break his covenant. Revelation 11:2-3, which speaks of 1260 days and 42 months, and Daniel 12:11-12, which speaks of 1290 days and 1335 days.

Again, these days have a reference to the midpoint of the tribulation. An understanding of Daniel 9:24-27 is necessary in order to understand the purpose and time of the tribulation. This passage speaks of 70 weeks that have been declared against “your people.” Daniel's people are the Jews, the nation of Israel, and Daniel 9:24 speaks of a period of time that God has given “to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.” God declares that “seventy sevens” will fulfill all these things. This is 70 sevens of years, or 490 years. (Some translations refer to 70 weeks of years.) This is confirmed by another part of this passage in Daniel. In verses 25 and 26, Daniel is told that the Messiah will be cut off after “seven sevens and sixty-two sevens” (69 total), beginning with the decree to rebuild Jerusalem. In other words, 69 sevens of years (483 years) after the decree to rebuild Jerusalem, the Messiah will be cut off. Biblical historians confirm that 483 years passed from the time of the decree to rebuild Jerusalem to the time when Jesus was crucified. Most Christian scholars, regardless of their view of eschatology (future things/events), have the above understanding of Daniel's 70 sevens.

With 483 years having passed from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem to the cutting off of the Messiah, this leaves one seven-year period to be fulfilled in terms of Daniel 9:24: “to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.” This final seven-year period is known as the tribulation period—it is a time when God finishes judging Israel for its sin.

Now I need you to explain why Daniel is not a proof text for the tribulation. You spoke those words as a biblical scholar, so I must ask from where did you get your training. I don't do 12 readings to understand the word, I study one precept at a time. So please explain your statement, one precept at a time.

I will address the Church and Israel tomorrow, its late here and I'm tired.

Peter Nagy, Author of Bible Study Book "The Bible I Thought I Knew"

Pastor Larry, 
All you did was parrot Hal Lindsey. Can you show us even one Bible scholar previous to 1830 and Irving/Darby that write of such a scenario? Let's look at the precepts you presented, one at a time. 

Dan. 9:27 never states, makes a seven year peace treaty. Verse 27 never states, breaks a seven year peace treaty. Verse 27 never states, the temple has to be rebuilt for a third time. Verse 27 never states, animal sacrifices will begin again. 

How can we go back 2,500 years and take part of a sentence completely out of context, change the meaning and say that it is meant for our future? We have a verse that is talking about Messiah, then Abra Cadabra all of a sudden, half of the verse is about an Anti-Christ, some 2,000 years in the future from the time frame (Verse 27) of the verse! 

Without any indication, why would Daniel secretly be telling Israel about some Anti-Christ 2,500 years in their future, inserted into the middle of a Messianic prophecy? 

If 69 weeks (483 years) lead up to Messiah’s arrival and He gets cut off (crucified) after 3 ½ years of ministry; isn’t the week He gets cut off in…the 70th week? 

Since Messiah is the final sacrifice, He caused the sacrifice (oblation) to cease. Did you notice the 490 years is foretold as seven weeks and 62 weeks and one week? Nobody ever tries to put a 2,000 year gap in between the seven weeks and the 62 weeks, do they? 

To put the 70th week some 2,000 years in the future is like putting bubblegum at the 35th inch of a yardstick, so it will measure whatever you want it to. This would also completely eliminate the prophecy and the only verse that accurately predicts the arrival of Messiah at year 483 of the 490; and the death of Messiah after 3 ½ years of ministry. 

And, if Messiah had fulfilled 486 ½ years of this prophecy before He was crucified, wouldn’t there only be 3 ½ years left? After the cross; the Gospel went only to Israel first, and then later the Gentiles were included. 

Remember when Peter delivered the first salvation message (Acts 10) to the Gentiles? That would be 3 ½ years after the cross, marking the end of the 490 years and Israel’s exclusivity to God. Why would anyone try to take this seven year period about Messiah (from around 25-35 AD) and postpone it for our future, with Anti-Christ now being the focus?

Arthur Shady, Evangelist

Rest assured that all Scripture will be fulfilled and it will be in God's timing, not ours.

Larry Patrick, THD., Pastor/Founder at Charis Chapel Bible Church

Sorry for the Delay Peter. Had to work on several things yesterday. I will respond to you today.Good morning 

Peter Nagy, Author of Bible Study Book "The Bible I Thought I Knew"

Pastor Larry, 
I found it quite interesting that neither, Wycliffe, Huss, Luther, Knox, Calvin, Tyndale, Newton, Wesley, Whitfield, Edwards, Finney or Spurgeon believed in a pre-tribulation rapture; because they all lived and died before 1830..... when Irving and Darby invented that whole imaginary seven year tribulation period scenario. Easy to look up and verify. 
Pete

Larry Patrick, THD., Pastor/Founder at Charis Chapel Bible Church

Peter: 

I don't know where to begin, I will do this by answering some of your more outrageous statements first. 

"To put the 70th week some 2,000 years in the future is like putting bubblegum at the 35th inch of a yardstick, so it will measure whatever you want it to." 

God predicted the fall of Satan, 4,000 before it happened. In 410 BC, Zechariah wrote the following: Zech. 14:16, And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 17, And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. That's at least 2400 ago, and it has yet to happen. 

Daniel stated the following: 
Dan. 2:41, And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. 42, And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken. 43, And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay. 44, And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. 

Again, well over 2500 years have passed, and this has yet to happen. Of course, you could be one of those who try and say, that all these prophecies have already happened. But that would let everyone know you belong to that group of false teachers who deny literal interpretation of the Book of Daniel, in fact, they try to date many of his prophecies to a much later time and say he wasn't the author. I'm sure you are not one of those biblical interpreters. 

Bullinger wrote the following on Dan. 11:27, Daniels 70th week. long before Lindsey was born: 
This last, or "one seven" of years, is divided into two distinct equal parts (see Ap. 90), and the division takes place in connection with an event which has no connection whatever with any event which has yet taken place. Messiah did not "make a (not the) covenant" of any kind, either with Israel or with any one else, at the end of, or "after" the sixty-ninth week; nor did He "break" any covenant three and a half years later. Man may "make" and "break" covenants, but Divine Covenants are never broken. 
On the other hand: of "the prince that shall come" it is distinctly stated that he shall do both these very things (vv. Dan 9:26, 27). Hence, we are forced to the conclusion that this last seven of years still awaits its fulfilment; and this fulfilment must be as literal and complete as that of all the other parts of this vision and prophecy; for the end must be the glorious consummation for Israel of v. Dan 9:24, the complete destruction of "the coming prince" (the false Messiah or Antichrist), and the setting up of the Messiah's kingdom. 

I have yet to find how you calculated the Messiah's death after 3 1/2 years leaving 486 1/2 of fulfilled prophecy. The fact is, that the last 7 days of Daniel's 490 days have not yet happened. Why is it strange for Daniel to speak on something that would happen in the last Days. Our Lord spoke of it in (Mat 24:15, When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) ). You can't equate this statement of Christ to the destruction of the temple by Titus in 70 A.D. When Christ spoke these words, He was address a question from His disciples about the signs of His setting up the kingdom.

Peter Nagy, Author of Bible Study Book "The Bible I Thought I Knew"

The abomination of desolation/one stone not left upon another has already happened in 70 AD, and what He was warning them about in Matt 24. 

The word "prince" that is to come, simply means leader. 

The ten toes, or ten kingdoms of Rome, and the little horn that grows up from them are no secret.

Do you remember (Dan. 7:24) the 10 horns? The Roman Empire was divided into ten Gothic tribes or kingdoms. There were Heruli, the Suevi, the Burgundians, the Huns, the Franks, the Ostragoths, the Visigoths, the Vandals, the Lombards and the Anglo-Saxons. 

Do you remember the little horn (Dan. 7:8) that plucks up or subdues three kingdoms? When the Roman Empire fell, the papacy rose to power, still ruling and reigning from Rome. The papacy overthrew three of the kingdoms; the Heruli in 493, the Vandals in 534 and the Ostragoths in 553.

The little horn wears out the saints of the Most High (Dan. 7:25). Who else is responsible for torturing and killing as many as 50 million Christians and Jews than Rome and the papacy? 

If you are waiting for some false religious system to rise and take Rome's place, still ruling and reigning from Rome; won't they have to reproduce everything the Catholics have already done? 

What if the anti-Christ has been with us for 1700 years, and we don't recognize it? Now her protestant daughters perpetuate her blasphemic doctrines and practices, and then they deludedly think the rest of the world is sooooo un-biblical.

Larry Patrick, THD., Pastor/Founder at Charis Chapel Bible Church

Continued

Obviously Christ believed in Daniels prophecy, for He did not come in AD 70 to set up His Kingdom. Ah...... maybe you are one of those teachers that Paul had to put down who tried to teach that this had already happened. Now lets look at what you said Danile 27 doesn't say. You stated the following:

Dan. 9:27 never states, makes a seven year peace treaty. Verse 27 never states, breaks a seven year peace treaty. Verse 27 never states, the temple has to be rebuilt for a third time. Verse 27 never states, animal sacrifices will begin again.

And now lets look at what verse 27 says: 
Daniel 9:27, And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Ummm......, it seems everything you said Daniel didn't say, he's actually saying. So I guess you do believe that Titus accomplished all this when he destroyed the temple in AD 70. Yet Christ spoke of this verse happening as a signal to the end of the age and the setting up of His kingdom. So, now to continue your belief system, Christ's kingdom is only Spiritual, not the physical kingdom spoken of by Zech. 14:16-17 and so many other scriptures that its not necessary to even quote them.

I will finish this later today, have a meeting now. Here is a link to George Peters work called "The Theocratic Kingdom", considered the greates work ever written on the subject.

http://www.christianbook.com/the-theocratic-kingdom-3-vols/george-

Peter Nagy, Author of Bible Study Book "The Bible I Thought I Knew"

C'mon now, reality check. Daniel 9:24-27 was prophesying to Jerusalem and Israel about their Messiah coming in about 500 years....not about some imaginary anti-Christ person coming in our future, some 2500 years away!

John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited

Dear Larry:

Only because Peter shouldn't be the only one to disagree with you...

The folly of your eschatology is that it is just over 180 years old. It's a little older than Mormonism, but just as fictitious. It is as intriguing as the DaVInci Code and an even bigger best-seller.
And like all error, its fault lies not in its leaves, but at its root. It denies God's omnipotence presenting the cross of Christ as God's Plan B; it denies His omniscience as though he didn't know the Jews in Jesus time would reject him as king, and reduces the majesty of Christ's return to a hocus-pocus of speculation that is the envy of astrologers everywhere.

Clearly the time-table of Christ's return is much simpler.

"Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever." I Thessalonians 4:13-17

No 1000 year reign. No rapture. No tribulation that doesn't involve Christians. No pre-trib or post-trib or dispensationalist fallacies.

One of the great challenges of scripture is to know what is literal and what is figurative.
When Jesus talked about plucking one's eye out if it causes us to sin, he had something other than our applying a knife to deal with the offending eye. 
When he talked about loving our enemies, he literally meant 'our enemies.'

The trouble with much of contemporary eschatology is that it chooses to be literal about passages which are clearly figurative, at the expense of passages like 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 which are as literal as a stop sign. 
The only reference in the Bible to a 1000 year rule is in the book of Revelation, a book we are to take most seriously, despite its being quite figurative. It is prophecy, quite visual, unspeakably majestic directed to people suffering for their faith, many at the expense of their lives. Its central message? Christ is the alpha and omega, the beginning and the end, the Lord of history, whose purposes can't be thwarted and whose death is our redemption and death's destruction. The Revelation is of the Lord who is and who is to come, and not a book of speculation as to where or when.

The Lord's return will occur at a time we can't predict and will mark the end of history as we know it and fulfil 'his kingdom come' which at present is both 'now' and 'not yet.'

Larry Patrick, THD., Pastor/Founder at Charis Chapel Bible Church

John,
I'm away from my study right now, but you are completely wrong. I heard the same 130 year argument when I proved the GAP was over 2700 years old, as recorded in Jewish literature as well as early Christian lit. I'm not going to waste time with you and Peter when your own words prove who and what you are. 

"No 1000 year reign." :-). Please tell me, what will man be doing after Satan is locked away for 1000 years, or is that another place where we only use a spiritual interpretation?

Peter Nagy, Author of Bible Study Book "The Bible I Thought I Knew"

Larry, 
What about the millennium time period? Revelation 20 is the only chapter in the entire Bible to mention the 1,000 years or millennium. If we look closely, the books are opened after a universal resurrection, with a separation and universal judgment of good and bad alike, immediately following the millennium (verses 11-15). 

Why would there still be a beast after He returns (verse 4), and a choice to take its mark? This agrees completely with the Lord’s descriptions in the gospels about the separation of the good and bad fish, wheat and tares, sheep and goats after He returns. 

It appears to be obvious; the spiritual Kingdom ushered in by Messiah is one and the same as the millennium. This millennium can only be the time period between the incarnation and the second coming, because judgment for everyone follows the event of His return.

John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited

Dear Larry: 

So you need not argue with me any further on this subject, having had enough of me in the debate about women pastors, I have listed some excellent books on the subject of eschatology which are worth your investigation. 
They have been provided by Brian Cunnington, an Evangelical Professor (now retired) who taught for years at Tyndale University College and Seminary in Toronto, Canada. 

They are: 
Archer, Gleason L. Three Views on the Rapture; Pre; Mid; Or Post-tribulation. Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1996. 
Blaising, Craig, Hultberg, Alan, and Moo, Douglas J. Three Views on The Rapture: Pretribulation, Prewrath, or Posttribulation. Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 2010. 
Frykholm, Amy Johnson. Rapture Culture: Left Behind in Evangelical America. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2004. 
Gundry, Robert H. The Church and the Tribulation. Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1999. 
McPherson, David. The Incredible Cover-Up: The True Story of the Pre-trib Rapture. Plainfield, NJ: Logos International, 1975. 
Rossing, Barbara R. The Rapture Exposed: The Message of Hope in the Book of Revelation. New York: Basic Books, 2004. 

For my take on the 1000 year reign, which is 'a-millennial' - it refers to the period between Christ's resurrection and his second coming. The figurative use of 1000 years is the same as its appearance in 2 Peter 3:8-10: 

"Don’t let it escape your notice, dear friends, that with the Lord a single day is like a thousand years and a thousand years are like a single day. The Lord isn’t slow to keep his promise, as some think of slowness, but he is patient toward you, not wanting anyone to perish but all to change their hearts and lives. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. On that day the heavens will pass away with a dreadful noise, the elements will be consumed by fire, and the earth and all the works done on it will be exposed." 

As 2 Thessalonians 2:3-8 instructs us - 'that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God. 
Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendour of his coming." 

The eschatology is pretty straight forward and well worth investigating.

Gary Keasler, Free Download, 'Everything You Need to Know About the Last Days'.

I love these discussions. When i go into the Jails there are always questions about this even when that was not the sermon. 
Couple of things.. if, in Daniel the Lord would have wanted to use 69 weeks then why did he not say 69 weeks until Messiah is cut off? There is no definite starting period for the issue of the decree... another oversite? No. I believe the 7 weeks has NOT been accounted for and the countdowns began when Jesus prophecied that Jerusalem being owned again by Jews (1967) was the end of gentile times. So 1967 + 50 (the start of the 50th year really) is 2017 when "Messiah the Prince" will close the Age, God will seal the 144,000 and America will be destroyed (Revelation 18), setting the stage for the exact scenario of the Tribulation. This goes along with the 5 Ages in the parable of the Laborers. 2017 - Jerusalems 50th anniversary, 2018 Israel's 70th anniversary, could there be a better time for the rapture and rebuilding of the temple.

Peter Nagy, Author of Bible Study Book "The Bible I Thought I Knew"

Notice that the 70 weeks or 490 years determined, are upon the Jews and upon their holy city, Jerusalem (Verse 24). Heptad is a plural word, but is used with a singular verb and is more properly translated, “Seventy weeks is determined,” describing the 70 weeks as one unit. Wasn’t this whole prophecy given to the Jewish people by a Jewish prophet about their Jewish Messiah?

Are you sure the 144,000 is a future reference Gary? Many people are expecting 144,000 Jewish “Billy Grahams” to start preaching the biggest revival of all time (Rev. 7:4). 

Does Scripture really predict a big revival or a great apostasy before He returns? Did you notice that the 144,000 are the first fruits? (Rev. 14:3, 4) These are 12,000 Jews from each of the 12 tribes of Israel, and not to be confused with the group that no man could number. Is this a symbolic number for the first Jewish believers in Messiah, whose numbers have surely increased since then? 

Doesn't James refer to the first Jewish converts from the 12 tribes (James 1:1, 18) to the new covenant and Messiah as “first fruits”? If the Ruach/Holy Spirit is supposedly raptured out with the church, how could the greatest revival of all time be possible? Anyway, if the 144,000 Jewish believers appear at the end this age, won’t they be the “last fruits”?

Gary Keasler - Free Download, 'Everything You Need to Know About the Last Days'.
Top Contributor

The 144,000 are specifically 'Chosen' by God, indeed making them the first fruits and they never leave the throne after that. Mt 20:16 shows that these 'Last' will be first because they were sealed (Rev 7:3). To see the position of the 'chosen' see Mt 22:14 - the called(the ones from the 1st 4 Ages) can be cast into outer darkness - the 'chosen' (the 144,000) cannot. Note that all the Ages are at the wedding feast so that feast will happen after the Tribulation, not during it as many believe... this follows with the parable of the Virgins where ALL slumbered and slept - they slept through the Tribulation period. 
Hope this helps.

John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited

My last entry on this subject is a copy of J. Ryan Parker's review of the theologian Barbara Rossing's book: 'The Rapture Exposed' - see http://www.patheos.com/blogs/poptheology/2009/12/the-rapture-exposed/

"Hollywood has spent billions of dollars to visualize global destruction through natural and man-made disasters. Religious filmmakers have spent millions trying to visualize the rapture and the apocalypse. 
In preparing for a lecture on blockbuster films and the apocalyptic sub-genre, a colleague recommended Barbara R. Rossing’s The Rapture Exposed: The Message of Hope in the Book of Revelation.
Rossing comes out swinging in the first line of the first chapter: “THE RAPTURE IS A RACKET”. She continues in her book to uncover its creation, less than two centuries ago and the damage that it has wrought in politics, ethics, and theology, particularly in the United States. Rossing points to its creation based on the vision of a fifteen-year-old Scottish girl, Margaret MacDonald, which was then amplified by John Nelson Darby, a British evangelical preacher and founder of the Plymouth Brethren. Darby shared his ideas about the rapture on numerous mission trips to America between 1859 and 1877. The strength, one of many, of Rossing’s text is that she takes what has become known as premillenial dispensationalism and surgically dismantles it due to its lack of any significant scriptural foundation.

Rossing takes a longer view of Scripture than rapture proponents…that is, she seems to be looking at how God has worked throughout Scripture rather than simply piecing together a handful of verses, many out of context, to create a much-anticipated time-line of rapture, destruction, and death. Along the way, she highlights criticisms of this theological worldview from all camps, liberal and conservative, evangelical and mainline, Baptist, Catholic, Presbyterian...
Rossing reveals that this view of God’s action in the world, and the hopes of many dispensationalists, is especially dangerous for residents of the Middle East, Jewish, Muslim, and Christian alike.
Therefore, roadmaps for peace actually become roadblocks for the rapture in dispensationalists’ minds. Thus, there is a sick obsession with and desire for violence to hasten Jesus’ second coming. However, Rossing contrasts this with what she calls “Lamb power,” the nonviolent way of God made manifest in Jesus throughout the New Testament and even in Revelation. She argues repeatedly that the Bible’s vision of confronting evil is through nonviolence, the epitome of which is Jesus’ willingness to die on the cross.

Contrary to the premillenial dispensationalist vision of the Bible and geo-political events, Rossing argues that Christians are called to a renewal of the earth, not to await its destruction. We pray this in the Lord’s Prayer: “Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.” She writes, “The Lamb is leading us on an exodus out of the heart of empire, out of the heart of addiction to violence, greed, fear, an unjust lifestyle, or whatever holds each of us most captive. It is an exodus we can experience each day” (142).
As a way of personal confession, I found Rossing’s book so interesting because I was raised in an environment of religious fear. Yet as I grew older and delved further into Scripture and experience, I realized that this worldview was contrary to what I believed to be true of God.

In The Rapture Exposed, Rossing has given us a passionate, thoughtful, and articulate critique of this heresy (as Bill Moyers calls it). She has also provided us with a beautiful, life-affirming ethic grounded in Scripture that can shape the lives we live today and bring truth to the statement that while many Christians are waiting for God to act violently, God is waiting for all of us to act non-violently."

Deacon Mike Chesley, Deacon of Archdiocese of Detroit

John is right on here. There was a recent book written by a Catholic with the same conclusions. dispensationalisim is a new by Darby and exploited in the Scolfield bible. For the many people who think of the Catholic Church as a version of the DeVince Code it can be intrigueing. Thre are some early Church fathers ( Catholic and Eastern ) that even appeal to a 1000 year reign, but the general consenus in the Church is that we have very little to say about it dogmatically. Most of what the Church says is what it isnt. ( dispensationist teaching) The Church believes there will be an anti Christ and that evil and good will battle and the Church will be there for the trials. ( no such escape ) But other than that, the Church is very wise to not try to make predictions.

Gary Keasler - Free Download, 'Everything You Need to Know About the Last Days'

John, i see both good and bad in what you (or Rossing) is saying. As an evangelical I approach people with love and the gospel even though i believe that God has stated that the time will come when He will pour our His wrath on the wicked(Rev 6:9-11). I don't believe that a lot of Christians have an addiction to violence, greed, fear and an unjust lifestyle... As for Darby, there were writings before him looking for answers to what it would mean when Jerusalem would be owned again by the Jews, so desire for knowledge about prophecy and the "secrets" Jesus talks about in Mt 13:35 has always been present. A lot of what Jesus says goes away if taken just as idle comments. (Mt 4:4) - Thanks.

God in history

Although these excerpts from the Global Pastors Network were in the response to the question of whether women could be pastors, the exchange here between myself and a Dr. Larry Patrick took aim at the larger issue of how God works in history...

Larry Patrick, THD., Pastor/Founder at Charis Chapel Bible Church

Dear John Deacon,

Throughout history, man has forever found ways to disagree with God's revealed truth. Seeing that women as pastors disagrees with so much of both the Old and the New Testament, this trend is closer to what the Spirit reveals about the last days:
* 2 Peter 2:2, And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. 3, And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

Woman has lusted to be the head of man since creation, this lust in these last days has lead to "the way of truth shall be evil spoken of". I have many qualified women as co-laborers with me in my church as well as co-researchers with me in the seminary. My latest book to be published soon could not have been finished if it were not for research done by one of the female graduates who has gotten her TH.M. Yet, with all their qualifications, not one over the past 26 years would attempt to be a pastor.

This movement has destroyed the true value of women ministry, as well as distracted many gifted women from allowing themselves to be use by the Spirit into using their talents to be something they were not born to be, a man (way of Korah). I will not become part of some social movement that destroys the veracity of God's Word.

I do not have an opinion on women as pastors, I have the revealed Word of God that they can't be pastors. Your opinion is non Biblical, but of course you are allowed to have it. I can only pray that you will send for a copy of my book, and after reading it you may become a as great a proponent against this movement as you now are one for it.

In His Matchless Grace
Dr. Patrick

John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited

Dear Dr. Patrick:

I appreciate the thoroughness of your response and I'm impressed you have a book to back it up.

But I think the heart of our disagreement has more to do with how we see God moving in history, rather my taking up the pernicious ways of 2 Peter 2:2. 
Pernicious ways can mean two things - licentiousness and legalism. We can abuse the scripture to justify our taking undue license with others (i.e. sexual, physical, mental or authoritative abuse) or by insisting on the letter of the law to the exclusion of the working of God's Spirit. 
Both were in evidence in the New Testament church - licentiousness in the Corinthian church and legalism in the Jerusalem church described in Acts 21:20 - "Brother, you see how many thousands of Jews have become believers, and all of them keep the Law passionately" - who were equally as impassioned to murder the Apostle Paul.

How does God move in history? Is He static? Does he hold to certain precepts and methodologies, or does He change?
Is He married to the past or are his ways new every morning? We know Him to be the unchanging One, the same yesterday, today and forever - and yet we know the way he revealed himself to Moses is different or at least hidden (veiled) compared to the God revealed in Christ.
Is he still destroying the armies of Sennacherib, or with Christ insisting that love is the better way? Was he with those who marched on Washington with Martin Luther King 50 years ago as he was with those who marched around Jericho 3500 years ago?
Is he still opening the ground beneath the feet of those who opposed Moses, or is he in his kindness now exercising a greater patience to give his adversaries time to repent?
I say 'yes' to all that and 'yes' to a thousand liberations more, all owing their root, cause, articulation and end in the triumph of Jesus Christ, the one who brings 'justice to victory', validating that God's love wins in far more ways than we can ever know.

Is He daunted by the progress of invention, computers, civil rights legislation, the splitting of the atom or is He at the heart of it all? Is He the great keeper of the status quo or at the heart of every person's cry for freedom, regardless of how reckless we are to pursue it?
Is He the founder of a monolith, all members uniformly the same, or He is the Author of life in all of its diversity, where not one of us can elude the power of his grace and love? Is his church a fixed institution like commandments on stone or a living organism where everyone's a peculiar gift belonging to one another?

I believe God is calling women to a fuller place in both the world and the church today because both the world and the church desperately need it. Just as God 2000 years ago called the Gentiles to a fuller place in both the world and the church. 
It is God who sets captives free, who undoes the constraints we bind one another with religious and otherwise, because in Christ 'there is neither male nor female, Jew nor Gentile, slave nor free for we are all one in Christ Jesus.'

That oneness is one of the great works of God, on the cross, in the church, realized and still to be realized in every generation until his return.

Larry Patrick, THD, Pastor/Founder at Charis Chapel Bible Church

Dear John Deacon

You are correct, we have a different understanding of God. I do not see God as having to adjust His Word to the times and changes of man. I don't see His immutability being challenged by our desire to do something that He has already address from Genesis to Revelation. He established the relationship between man and woman, first at creation and second after the fall. He outlined detailed requirements for His priest in both the Old and the New testament. It was Him not man who stated "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law" (1Co 14:34). It was also He who prophesied in Zach 5:11 that He would send a great evil to the land of Shinar "To build it an house in the land of Shinar: and it shall be established, and set there upon her own base" (The way of Korah).

But most important of all, I will proclaim as David did "thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name." (Psa. 138:2). If the God I serve went against His own Word, He would not be God. You serve a God that agrees with your desire for equality over your desire for truth. I serve a God who has declared to me, that the time will come when they will not hold to sound doctrine. We live in the last days, I believe you would agree to that. One of the main characteristics of this time is the increase of "belly" walkers, those who serve there emotions and desires rather than follow truth.

So again and finally, you are correct, I don't see God changing to adjust His ways to us, but I do see Him poring out His wrath as He did on Sodom when we refuse to adjust our ways to Him.

John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited

"Look! I’m doing a new thing;
now it sprouts up; don’t you recognize it?
I’m making a way in the desert,
paths in the wilderness." Isaiah 43:19 CEB

We serve a God who is not static, who is ever doing 'a new thing.'
As well as we can discern God's ways looking back, we have no idea of what he will do next.
We are finite, he is infinite. All the biblical study in the world up to the time of John the Baptist, could have never predicted a messiah that would look or behave or teach like Jesus. The best bible scholars of his time missed the mark entirely and if they did, so too can we regarding the 'new thing' God is doing in our time.

Imagine for a moment the incredible struggle the first disciples went through after Peter's encounter with Cornelius. Even the Lord they had followed for 3 years and whose teaching they were to carry forward, spoke exclusively of coming 'for the lost sheep of Israel.'
But the disciples with Peter's vision were being challenged to extend the borders beyond Israel to include the Gentiles.
It is an easy thing for us to rationalize after the fact, but at the time without any NT canon, the biblical verses denying the Gentiles as fellow heirs of God's kingdom were far more numerous than for their acceptance.

Think of the people in John 8 rightly expecting they are about to witness a scripturally sanctioned stoning of an adulterer, only to find that Jesus had a different way of dealing with adulterers.

Yes - there are verses in scripture to validate the belief that never a pastor should a woman be. But they are no more binding than the verses that at one time restricted the Gentiles from being numbered among God's people, nor were they so binding to prevent women from assuming ministerial roles in the 1st generation of the church as evident in the list of women ministers Paul acknowledges in Romans 16 and Philippians 4.


It is my belief that women fulfilling the role of pastor is one more example of God's doing a 'new thing', a testament to God's making man - both male and female - in His image and likeness and the power of his redemption.

Larry Patrick, THD., Pastor/Founder at Charis Chapel Bible Church

Mr. Deacon, 

Again you are using scripture for your own purposes. God never did or does a new thing that He doesn't announce first. The birth of Christ was the second most prophesied event in the Bible, only the Kingdom of God has been more prophesied. The men of His day were not true scholars, or they would have known Isa 53:1-10, especially verse 10 ......... when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. 

They didn't know the prophesy because the truth of God's Word was not as important to them as the power and position they were trying to keep. Even the verse you try to use was an announcement so those who have had their ears "digged" can understand. He does nothing He has not announced, and He announces all that He will do. 

Your insistence on trying to put a new thing in God's revealed plan as well as His purpose exposes the purpose of your perversion of the truth. All that I posted today is irrefutable truth of God's Word. It was presented in such a way as to be non-approachable by differing interpretations. The plain simplicity of its truth proved from both the Old Testament and the New Testament that a woman cannot be a pastor and that God has established her as a helpmate to man, cursed since the fall. Instead of accepting this truth, you re-direct your presentation to try and say you serve a different God. You portray Him as a God that does not have omniscience, but must change His plan at the whims of the decant society we now live in. GOD DOES NOT CHANGE, He does no new thing that He has not prophesied and He does not change the relationship of man and woman, for the relationship we have is a prophecy of the second greatest mystery in the Bible ....... the mystery of "Christ and the Church". 

Eph 5:31, For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32, This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church 

In His Matchless Grace 
Dr. Patrick

John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited

Dear Larry:

I am not questioning God's omniscience, I am questioning ours - both yours and mine.
You're being too hard on the scholars in Jesus who didn't recognize him. As you write:

"The men of His day were not true scholars, or they would have known Isa 53:1-10, especially verse 10 ......... when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand."

Nobody understood the truth of Isaiah 53, nor how Jesus fulfilled it until after the fact. Paul himself insists it was hidden...

"We talk about God’s wisdom, which has been hidden as a secret. God determined this wisdom in advance, before time began, for our glory. It is a wisdom that none of the present-day rulers have understood, because if they did understand it, they would never have crucified the Lord of glory! But this is precisely what is written: God has prepared things for those who love him that no eye has seen, or ear has heard, or that haven’t crossed the mind of any human being." 1 Corinthians 2:7-9

I agree with you the activity of God throughout history is consistent with who He is and I agree with you that looking back we can see the One who was, is and evermore will be. 

Where I disagree with you is our ability to know his ways going forward. We know he's coming again. Beyond that, we see through a glass darkly. His ways are not our ways, nor His ways in the world we live in easily perceived.

At the end of time we will be able to look at all He's done and see the utter consistency of his character and actions. 
Where we stumble as did the scholars in Jesus day is what is He up to now and what He will be up to tomorrow. 
The best we can say is: 'Lord I'm yours, use me in whatever way you choose.'
If it is a woman who in praying that prayer feels lead into ministry as a pastor, priest, evangelist, and/or apostle, is our only biblical response to insist she's being lead by some other spirit than the Spirit of Christ?

I have met too many Spirit filled women in ministry to insist that someone other than the Holy Spirit who lead them there. 

Larry you might be right. 


But then again, you could be obstructing the work of the Holy Spirit in denying ministry to women, which both of us would agree is not just wrong, but blasphemy.

Larry Patrick, THD. Pastor/Founder at Charis Chapel Bible Church

John, 

You forget who we are. Before Pentecost, no one had the indwelling Holy Spirit as a teacher and a Guide,and please do not quote to me what David prayed about not taking the Holy Spirit from me. We both know that was not the indwelling seal. Nor were any Old Testament believers born again before Pentecost. Being born of His Word, we are Theosapien, and new species of life that never existed before Pentecost. That being said, I can partially agree with you as to what the Pharisees and Sadducee did not know. But what was hidden from them is made plain to us. The complete cannon of Scripture has been given, and with it comes our ability through the illumination of the Spirit, coupled with the consistent intake of His Word, to layer precepts for a deeper understanding of the same, Why do you think Paul said "as also saith the law" in 1 Co. 14:34. The law spoken of was not one law, but many that differentiated men from women. Were we taught today the true reason for a woman offering of a "sin offering" once a month, the precept layering with the rest of the law concerning women would keep anyone from this last age apostasy of women Pastors. 

It is not my intention to offend, but it is time that we speak openly of what is happening. You disagree with me on our ability to see what He is going to do, yet He has prophesied more on the subject of the setting up of His kingdom than any other subject in the Bible. It has even been giving unto us to know of the "things in heaven" which we are commanded to "lust after", Col.3:2, Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. You can't lust after what you don't know, so this verse means we are suppose to KNOW of what the eternal kingdom will consist of. Also note, "things" is a plural word so He is not talking about a "spiritual state" as is the teaching of so many. But speaking plainly, we can know what He will do, by what He has done. Our Father establishes patterns throughout His creation, patterns that teach His children, indwelt by His Spirit, His ways. 
The existence of these patterns is even part of the judgement of the Gentiles. Romans 1: 20, For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 

These patterns are also in all that He does, His very Justice and Righteousness are based on His patterns established in the Law. Therefore, I cannot agree with you that He is doing a new thing today, because it completely violates all the established patterns He has shown His children in His word. 

Finally, doing "good works" is no demonstration of following the Spirit. The fruit of the Spirit is " love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance". The first of these is love, and our love is based first on our love for our Father. However, the Bible teaches us what love of God is: 1 John 1:6, And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it. Loving God is following after the truth, not following what you "feel". IF WHAT A PERSON FEELS, GOES CONTRARY TO HIS WORD ...... well nothing else needs to be said. When ever I have had this discussion in the class room, It always ends up with personal experience. But following after what you feel and personal experience is akin to what Paul said in Phil 3:18, (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19, Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.). That is why I call them "belly walkers", the sad thing is, what they should be "shameful" of, they actually glory in. For this I do not blame the woman, but the Pastor, who supports them.

John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited

Dear Larry:

You are getting more convoluted with every entry. You need to get out of the classroom more.

You seem to waiver between the two testaments to justify what you believe. David doesn't have the spirit and yet a woman is beneath a man because it was she who deceived by the serpent.
If men are theosapiens, are women theosapiens too? And if they are, doesn't that mean they no longer have to answer to the curse they were put under with Adam's sin?

Are we 'theosapiens? Hardly.
I agree that his kingdom within us is the evidence of the new creation but the designation as our being theo anything will have to wait until the redemption of our bodies.
And you think that 'doing good works' not a demonstration of the Holy Spirit at work?

"You are saved by God’s grace because of your faith. This salvation is God’s gift. It’s not something you possessed. It’s not something you did that you can be proud of. Instead, we are God’s accomplishment, created in Christ Jesus to do good things. God planned for these good things to be the way that we live our lives." Ephesians 2:8-10

We are newly created in Christ to do good things! If we are not doing good things we have every reason to question whether we are 'in the faith.' We are not saved by good works but once saved we are newly created to do good works. By doing so, it becomes as evident as light and salt, that we are God's accomplishment.

The evidence that Christ's kingdom is here is the poor being blessed, the hurting being shown mercy, wars being thwarted by peacemakers, and those seeking justice being persecuted. His light shines not in theosapiens, but in the fully human and vulnerable made radiant by God's spirit within.

My apologies for repeating myself, but neither you or I know what God is going to do tomorrow. Oh sure - in broad strokes - we know it will be the extension of his kingdom, that dark forces will be overthrown, that love will prevail and His Spirit will glorify the Son. But whether a new Francis of Assisi will emerge, or another Martin Luther King, whether Africa becomes Christianity's brightest shining light, or Putin undergoes a Nebuchadnezzer like transformation to become servant and not lord - none of this you or I know!
All we know is that God triumphs. And in his triumph, both men and women will rejoice - both having their share in his victory, both having done their part.

And if the immediate aftermath of Christ's resurrection in any way foreshadows who will be the first to give thanks when Christ comes again, it will be the women! 
For it was the women who were the first witnesses and messengers of his triumph over death. If Christ could entrust them with the news then, there is no reason he can't entrust them with the news now.

Larry Patrick, THD. Pastor/Founder at Charis Chapel Bible Church

John,

You are right again, I do use both Testaments, but all of God's Word is "..... quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. " Also, "2Ti 3:16, All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: " For you to run to that old haven of using both Testaments as though only the New Testament was valid, is unworthy of you. The precepts of the Old Testaments are better understood with the light and illumination provided by the New. However, all of God's Word is one Word. Although the condemnation of the law is nailed to the cross, the principles taught in the Law explain to us all of His ways.

Your comment is completely wrong, as a matter of fact, the opposite is true. "f men are theosapiens, are women theosapiens too? And if they are, doesn't that mean they no longer have to answer to the curse they were put under with Adam's sin?"

Yes, both women and men are Theosapiens, and as such, both are held to a higher degree of responsibility than those who are not. To whom much is given, much is expected. God doesn't excuse us for what we desire, if those desires are against His declared truth. Your entire presentation appeals to the feelings of the reader, sounding the drums of the socially correct position like waving a flag. However, remember the waring of Jude about the last days, " 11, Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
12, These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
13, Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever."

But you do not believe we are the "children of God" a "new species", even though scripture declares we are " 1Jo 3:2, Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." We have been born twice, literally, as also declared by Christ as being necessary to enter into the Kingdom and as declared by the Spirit in " 1Pe 1:23, Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." What do I call a person who denies what Christ has accomplished on the cross. When you deny what He has made us you are in affect denying the purpose of His death on the cross. What, do you not know that we are only "waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body" ? In your attempt to be popular, you are warring against God. By saying we are not Theosapien, you call yourself a "bastard", born only once. Theosapien = Sons of God, or Godmen/Godman, not as male or female, but as a "new creation".

Since it is obvious that no matter what is presented to you, you will deny it by using some colloquial saying, I am posting a link to my book entitled "The Prophetic Significance of Women Pastors".



Finally, you are again correct, we do not know what God is going to do tomorrow, but we do know what he has prophesied He will do, and what condition of the world and the Church will be just prior to His return. The "perilous times" of 2 Tim., are not perilous because of physical danger, but social danger, the danger that comes from those who are disguised as sheep so they can "creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts," .

John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited

Larry:

We will have to agree to disagree.

I'm not settled on being a theosapien, because Christ made so much of being a homosapien ('son of man') that I'm reluctant to give it up until my body undergoes resurrection. I resist teaching that makes much of dividing the body from the soul, only because that's a line only God knows. 
Meanwhile while redeemed, born anew by His Spirit, I yet experience hunger and thirst in the hope of connecting with the one 'who was hungry and you gave me something to eat.'

I will look at your booklet. 
In return I have attached the link to the well known evangelist and sociologist Tony Campolo's take on women preachers: 
http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Christianity/2006/10/Let-The-Women-Preach.aspx

Thank you for engaging this long with me in this issue. It has helped to solidify a position I was somewhat lukewarm about until now. 
Going forward, I am committed to encouraging women to preach.

Larry Patrick, THD.  Pastor/Founder at Charis Chapel Bible Church

John, 

I can accept your statement of agreeing to disagree, even though it saddens me. 

One word that may help you in your acceptance of who you are. Christ was called( "son of man") because he was the only man born as Adam was created. But he was always the (son of God). By us being born twice, we have become as He was while we yet live, with a new spirit that has (Eternal Life) as the life in it. That is what makes us Theosapien, a "new creation". Finally, I know you can determine the tense of the statement found in this verse. It is not future, as "will be" but present, as "are now". 

2Co 5:17, Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new 

Thank you for your link, but I have read his and many other authors on the subject while researching my brief pamphlet. It is specifically written and directed to the scripture text used by all those who claim this folly. 

I know you believe you are right, but again I am truly saddened by your decision to continue encouraging women to be Pastors. Please note I did not say preach. a word much misused today. Christ commanded all of us to preach the Gospel to the unsaved, but that is not being a Pastor. Preaching the Gospel is to be done to all the unsaved, not in the church but in the world. BTW, preaching is normally a one to one activity for reaching the soul of a unsaved person. Our use of the word today is not the use in the Bible. Preaching the Gospel, is not the same as being a Pastor. 

Phi 1:18, What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited

Dear Larry:

I did read through your link and it really doesn't help. Your theology regarding women is weighted too heavily by the Old Testament and seemingly unaffected by Christ's redemption of women in the New.

Do appreciate the distinction you make between preachers and pastors, but why apply a gender clause to pastors and not to preachers? It's gnat straining and I wonder if you don't know that already...

I thought Tony Campolo was being too harsh when he said at the Cooperative Baptist's Fellowship Conference in 2003:
"The Bible says, 'neglect not the gift that is in you,' and when women are gifted with the gift of preaching, anybody who frustrates that gift is an instrument of the devil."

But maybe he wasn't.

Your booklet blames women pastors for apostasy in the church.
That's a hard sell, even for most fundamentalists, let alone evangelicals.
I place the blame elsewhere.
Greed might be a good place to start.

The most pressing issue facing Christianity, just happens to be the most pressing issue facing the world. The growing gap between rich and poor and the lengths we go to as Christians to maintain the status quo rather than challenge - as both the Baptist and Jesus did - the tyranny of self-interest and greed, is the apostasy we've succumbed to. It's that 'love of money' thing that keeps tripping us up, the way it did the Pharisees!

http://www.homelessguide.com/2014/01/whats-wrong-with-christianity-look-no.html

Larry Patrick, THD., Pastor/Founder at Charis Chapel Bible Church

For my last post on this subject: 

To John Deacon; 

Your zeal is without knowledge, for you believe Christ freed women from the curse, but the curse is not removed until Rev 22:3, And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: The scriptures in the New Testament that I quoted would not have been written if woman was not the Body and man the Head. It is obvious you only skimmed the pamphlet, for if you had read it all you would not have said: 

"Your booklet blames women pastors for apostasy in the church." 

Women are only the way of Korah, which is one of 3 ways of the end time apostasy. Also, in my last post I closed saying I do not blame the woman, I blame the pastors. Further, it is obvious you do not understand the difference between preaching the Gospel, which is witnessing to the unsaved, and Pastoring the Church which is edifying the "body of Christ". 

Finally, you say I am evil, and yet it is you who neglect the pattern of God, established in Gen. 2, and not removed until Rev. 22. God never goes against His Word, he would never allow women to be gifted as Pastors as he did not allow Korah to be a Priest after the order of Aaron. Even though the same argument is being used now as it was used then "we are all holy, all the people (then) sons (now) of God are holy and equal" it is an argument that He prophesied would be used., . 

I guess now you will add to my evil that I presume to know who God will give a gift to. To that I say no, but I do know, that according to His own word, a woman cannot be a pastor. 

In His Matchless Grace 

Dr. Patrick

John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited

We clearly are divided into two camps here, with very little give at either end. 
Most debates of this nature usually end up this way. 

But I do want to put in a plug for feminism. Generally speaking the word in these settings has negative connotations, which I think is unmerited and reflective more of male fundamentalist paranoia than anything divine. 

God through history has had to use people other than 'His people' to bring his people into line. There are many instances of this, which Jesus brings home in his inaugural sermon in Nazareth. (see Luke 4) 

For more contemporary instances of God's having to use those outside the church to bring home issues God is passionate about, here are at least 3: 
1) the environment 
2) the non-violent movement 
3) gender equality 
All three of these issues are biblical, deeply biblical, but in our day, it has been people other than 'bible people' whom God has had to use to remind the church of their centrality. 

Genesis 2 God entrusts to both man and woman the care of his creation. It is fundamental to his purposes in making 'male and female in his image.' And yet, when is the last time you heard a preacher preach on our divinely appointed environmental responsibility to care for the earth God has made. This message until recently hasn't been coming from the church, so God has raised voices outside the church to provoke us into fulfilling this divine purpose. And yet do we thank them or do we scorn them for being nature lovers rather than lovers of God? We do the latter and look like fools in doing so as well as dishonour God. 

It took a Hindu, Mahatma Gandhi to remind Christians that 'turning the other cheek' and 'loving one's enemies' weren't Eastern teachings, but those of Jesus, which Gandhi chose not to abandon even though most Christians had. When Bonhoeffer, Mandela and Martin Luther King were delving into the 'soul force' resistance of love and not hate, they had to look to Gandhi rather than to the Christian church for their example! What a betrayal of the leading example of militant non-violence - Christ himself! 

It took the feminist movement to dislodge society from archaic notions of gender inequality. In its early stages it was lead by a number of prominent evangelical women, but eventually the ugly face of male dominance and misogyny pushed its spokespersons out of the church and into the world, where it has since flourished. 
The inequality the movement focused on: the right to vote, the right to equal pay, the right to pursue one's gifting are as true to the gospel as is the freeing of slaves and yet, the backlash, especially from conservative Christians, has been so militant, so archaic and so un-Christ-like, many women have left the church to find their place in the world. 
This is so sad, when one realizes the incredible place of equality women had in the life of Jesus - not only his mother, but those who supported him through his ministry and those who stood by him at the cross when all of his males disciples had fled. 

When I hear men harp about how women can't be pastors, it sounds pharisaical, it sounds paranoid, it sounds dated, it sounds like God is only interested in turning back the clock, when in truth He is calling us forward. 
Time to move forward. Even if the provocateur is some agency outside the church.

Craig Cassatt, Church planting

John: The issue of women as pastors has nothing to do with gender equality; it has everything to do with obeying God's Word. Common sense dictates that in one sense men and women are equal, and in another sense there is a difference. When dealing with positions or structure( home, church, etc.,) there is a difference in Gods eyes( according to the Bible, when dealing with the way God looks at each one of us as children, then He looks at us equally and shows no partiality.

BrunoVAN de VLIET, Teacher at ETHIM Theological College

Gender equality is part and parcel of the bible and its message. Nowhere do we find the Lord saying women are 2nd class people. Not just the Lord God also the Lord Jesus never mentioned anything like that. It is a wrong historical interpretation by theologian and a misunderstanding of the text of the Bible as such. A very good book about is written by Dora and George Winston.

Raymond Kughen, Minister at Immanuel Baptish Church

Let the Bible speak and say what it clearly says and that will clear it up, unless there is another reason why people don't want to obey scripture.

John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited

Craig:

I think the issue of women as pastors has everything to do with gender equality.
The passage you refer to which initiated this discussion had to do with a pastor being 'the husband of one wife' and you infer from that the reverse isn't true - i.e. that a pastor can't be 'the wife of one husband.'
But the passage makes no mention of the unmarried. Do we deduce using your logic that someone who isn't 'the husband of one wife' can't be a pastor? Of course not - otherwise it would rule out every Catholic priest from being a pastor.
There were women in ministry in Jesus' time, in the time of early church (see Romans 16 etc) as there are in our generation.

Put it plainly, would you receive communion from a woman priest? If not, then you don't really believe in gender equality as the Bible pronounces it in Galatians 3:28.
I say communion, because I know from our Catholics brethren, this too would be an offence to most. According to their doctrine and tradition only men can be priests.

But if as Bruno and others have argued, that in Christ we share in the priesthood of all believers, then it is betrayal of NT theology to insert a gender clause.
Not only because in Christ, there is neither male nor female, slave nor free - but because the host we share, 'the broken body and the shed blood of our Lord', is the basis of our equality. As one hymn writer put it: Christ is 'both priest and victim in the Great Eucharistic Feast.'

Thus it makes no difference whether it is a woman or a man who presides over communion, because the one who is really priest as well as sacrifice, is Christ himself. All this bickering about whether women can be priests, pastors, evangelists, apostles is in fact a slight to the One who is our Only Priest.


As Jesus himself taught: “But you shouldn’t be called Rabbi, because you have one teacher, and all of you are brothers and sisters. Don’t call anybody on earth your father, because you have one Father, who is heavenly. Don’t be called teacher, because Christ is your one teacher." Matthew 23: 8-10