Counting the cost?

Simon Zelikman, at Emmanuel's Doorpost

John, Kurt, and ...........

No one would criticize your commitment to help the poor, we all want to help all, and all in whatever way possible, or we do not possess compassion, or Truth in the heart.

But, to generalize all so called "rich" as bad, is a GREAT mistake, and I feel as strongly about this as you do about your continued accusations.

And I feel strongly that to continually "help" some of the "poor", is to enable them to stay inactive, and this is Not as God would have us do.
Enabling is Not helping!

Proverbs 10: 3 The Lord will not suffer the soul of the righteous to famish: but he casteth away the substance of the wicked.

4 He becometh poor that dealeth with a slack hand: but the hand of the diligent maketh rich.

5 He that gathereth in summer is a wise son: but he that sleepeth in harvest is a son that causeth shame.

6 Blessings are upon the head of the just: but violence covereth the mouth of the wicked.

God wants us to work hard in whatever way we are gifted in, and yes we must help any and all, But we are Not to become beggars if we are able to prosper, and provide, as He blesses us to do, in His service, and for all.

God bless

Yours,

John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited

Simon:
It is my contention that what is wrong with Christianity is what is wrong with the world. God so loved the world he gave us his Son, so by extension it is God's love for the world that we as his people are to be engaged in.
The kingdom is wherever Jesus is. And as Matthew 25 tells us, he is with the homeless, the naked, the poor, etc. Not to say he isn't elsewhere but this passage from Matthew identifies where he can always be found!
So to be about the Lord's business, we must be where he is.
And if we are, then not only the matter of what's wrong with Christianity will be made right (or at least better) and by extension, so too the world.
In my expressions of concern about the wealthy, be assured I am addressing myself. For I too am wealthy.

Simon Zelikman, at Emmanuel's Doorpost

So why don't you give it all away, and move yourself and your family into a homeless shelter?

Howard Nason, Associate Pastor for missions at Northstar Church of God

John,
What are you doing personally to alleviate the suffering you have statistically documented? James wrote, " you say you have faith and I have works, I will show you my faith by my works." I can show you my faith by my works in working with and ministering to people in every one of those catagories and empowering others to do likewise. And John, its takes many rich people to support these works of mercy. Or, we can turn them over to the tender mercies of the government who will enslave them by making them eternally dependent upon a government system. In this day and age it takes every possible resource to address poverty and other issues that harm and kill millions. John, get beyond statistics, roll up your sleeves and go to work in a soup kitchen, a local mission or a prison.
TODAY I am taking several men and women to a prison for their orientation and badging so that they can minister to offenders, and in particular, 3 of the men, plus myself and another veteran will be trained as service officers to help offenders who were in the military apply for benefits for themselves and especially their families.
No one questions your statistics, but your solution to attack the rich for being evil because they are rich is neither biblical or practical.
Jesus said, "render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's." There is a place for the work of government to alleviate suffering and there is a place for the Body of Christ to carry out Jesus' commandment states in Matthew 25. It is not an either or, its a both and, so stop berating me and millions of others who have worked hard, served the Lord and have been financially blessed by the Lord himself. It is one thing to make proclamations from an ivory tower, its another thing to leave the cloistered life of contemplation and get down in the dirt and filthy, the disease and death that the poor live with and die from every day.

Agape,


John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited

Simon and Howard:
Good questions for all of us to be asking ourselves.
My insistence is we need to make ourselves answerable to those questions.

But big picture - beyond all the individual things we are doing - visiting people in hospitals, prisons, clothing the homeless, volunteering at an inner city church, advocating with various anti-poverty groups both locally and nationally...

We need to address the big-ticket social issues - the wide gap between rich and poor countries and communities; the disparity in our respective justice systems, the advancement of womens' rights and education initiatives, the systemic faults in our economic and political systems that need to be redressed to lessen the oppression poor people both here and globally face.
The church is not only to be the expression of his compassion but advocates for his justice - prophets speaking to those in power just as did Amos, Isaiah, Jeremiah, James and Christ himself.
My experience in making such appeals - in the church and in various levels of government that initially there are an acceptance that these issues are grievous but making the translation from platitudes to real social action and change is excruciatingly hard.

John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited

Simon and Howard:

Good questions for all of us to be asking ourselves.
My insistence is we need to make ourselves answerable to those questions and not just the questions of what we believe about baptisms, atonement etc, etc...

But big picture - beyond all the individual things we are doing - visiting people in hospitals, prisons, clothing the homeless, volunteering at an inner city church, advocating with various anti-poverty groups both locally and nationally...

We need to address the big-ticket social issues - the wide gap between rich and poor countries and communities; the disparity and inequity in our respective justice systems, the need to advance the rights of women especially education initiatives, the systemic faults in our economic and political systems that need to be redressed to lessen the oppression poor people both here and globally face.
The church is not only to be the expression of Christ's compassion but advocates for his justice - prophetic, speaking to those in power just as did Amos, Isaiah, Jeremiah, James and Christ himself.

My experience in making such appeals - in the church and in various levels of government is that initially there are an acceptance that these issues are grievous. The hard work is the translation from platitudes to real social action. This kind of change does occur but it can be excruciatingly hard at times, requiring much patience and perseverance...

PS - As seemingly disagreed as we are, I think we can agree that we can be doing more and should be spending more time in our respective Christian communities asking ourselves: Are we actually ministering to Jesus in 'the least of these his brethren' or just talking about it - assuming we talk about it at all?

I'm not - even though I spend upwards of 20 hours/wk - alongside running a business - being with poor and homeless people. I haven't moved into their neighbourhood full-time - that may one day happen if all my prayers are answered - but when one has aging parents and kids at the marrying age with their own issues to attend to - it gets complicated. Right now I am with our youngest who has just undergone major surgery...

And Howard - again - thank you for sharing the news of the good works you do. It gives me something to aim for!
To get some feel for the passion and conviction that drives me go to: www.homelessguide.com

Howard Nason, Associate Pastor for missions at Northstar Church of God

John,

thanks for the kind response. We all are using our gifts, and your family is your Jerusalem right now. My prayers are with you for a complete recovery for your youngest and blessings to you and all of your extended family. Keep on keeping on, my brother.

Agape,

Howard

Simon Zelikman, at Emmanuel's Doorpost

The same from me John, Howard said it better then I could.

God bless,

Yours,

John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited

Thanks Howard!
Your prayers are much appreciated.
I do admit to being rough on the wealthy and hopefully alongside passion will come wisdom!
That said, you read Amos and hear how angry he got at the sins of his people, especially of those in power and you think - the inequity then wasn't anything like it is now and they didn't have the benefit of Christ's example!

John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited

Thanks Simon!
It means a lot.
Actually this morning's back and forth helped me in deferring the anxiety I experience whenever things are precarious for those dear to me.
The surgery went very well, her recovery begins...thanks again for your prayers. Arguments can divide but prayer brings us together in a way nothing else can.

Kurt Kelley, Bassist/Vocalist at Treehouse Productions. Community Outreach Worker, Volunteer at Nursing Homes, Churches, etc...

John, I couldnt help bu notice your post giving reasons why you couldnt go serve full time in your areas of passion, serving the poor of the world. You mentioned aging parents, along with children of marrying age. So what is your take on the various bible passages that address those very issues, reasons to not follow Christ when He calls?

"when He called James and John, sons of Zebedee, IMMEDIATELY they let down their nets, LEFT their father, and followed Him."

Or Luke 9:57-62 57 As they were walking along the road, a man said to him, “I will follow you wherever you go.”
58 Jesus replied, “Foxes have dens and birds have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.”
59 He said to another man, “Follow me.”
But he replied, “Lord, first let me go and bury my father.”
60 Jesus said to him, “Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God.”
61 Still another said, “I will follow you, Lord; but first let me go back and say goodbye to my family.”
62 Jesus replied, “No one who puts a hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God.”

Or Luke 18:28 Peter said to him, “We have left all we had to follow you!”
29 “Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

In the days of Jesus, you didnt have many single adults, just living on their own, able to up and do whatever they chose. Pretty much every man of physical maturity was married. THough the bible doesnt give the family backgrounds of His 12 Disciples, one can assume, based on knowledge of the culture at the time, that most of those guys were probably married with children, and aging parents, etc...when Jesus called them to leaver EVERYTHING behind and follow Him.

But we dont have to go back 2000 years to find examples of devoted Disciples who left everything to follow Him. Have you ever read about the Chinese Underground Church movement? People who have endured prison, punishment, even tortured for the Gospel, which includes being seperated from their families, for years, and sometimes, forever. Or indigenous missionaries in India, who choose to leave their families behind, for the greater call of taking the Gospel into villages and areas unfamiliar, or hostile to the Gospel.

There are numerous examples through out Scripture of Jesus challenging would be Disciples that He must come first, even before family. He said that our love for Him should be so that our devotion to our families should seem like hatred in comparison.

The point is, we all can find reasons not to Follow Him with reckless abandon. Almost everyone has some kind of family, or loved ones in their lives. Mortgages, careers, seniority, etc...There is always a reason or excuse why we cant follow Him just now.

John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited

Dear Kurt:
Guilty on all charges!
I do rationalize and when someone calls me to account the variance between the words of Jesus and the way I live my life, all I can say is: 'Woe is me."
I do expect to hear a repeat of many of your words on that Great Day when I have to give account for the life I've lived.
So rather than waste another word in self-justification, I am repeating this reflection I posted several months ago which I entitled 'The Smiling Camel':

Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God. Matthew 19:24

I tend to wear most proudly that which I least deserve.
Several weeks ago I was honoured alongside a dozen career volunteers of an agency in Regent Park (one of Toronto's poorest neighbourhoods).
Though I was the least deserving of the twelve, my smile was the biggest in the room. Like the camel who makes it through the eye of a needle and has no idea why, what can he do but smile?
Whether it's street friends living with schizophrenia who know me by name, or women caught in the sex trade who trust me as a friend, there is something about being known among the hurting that exceeds any other acclaim.

Kurt Kelley, Bassist/Vocalist at Treehouse Productions. Community Outreach Worker, Volunteer at Nursing Homes, Churches, etc...

John, I wouldnt have asked you that, had I not experienced it myself. I am seeking seriously to go on the mission field. I dont see the need for me here, when just at my medium sized church, are dozens who could teach the gospel, a dozen who could lead worship, and almost everyone there KNOWS and understands the gospel. Whereas, there are many parts of the world where they have no one who knows, understand, or who can lead or teach the scriptures. So I definitely feel needed more elsewhere, than to just be another American Christian preaching to the choir. (or entertaining them with my music)

My personal situation is that I am the only surviving child of two divorced, aging parents, who live 8 hours apart from each other, and both very far from me. Mom is 78, dad 83. Both are still very healthy and all, but it wont last forever. We arent very close, but I still feel the biblical obligation to honour my parents. However, when Ive tried to move back to the midwest from Florida, in order to be closer to them, its been a disaster. No opportunities, I get depressed, and neither of them said they needed me to live near them. Both told me I should stay where I can make a living for myself.

But my heart beats for missions more than anything else. Im just going thru the motions now, being comfortable, having fun playing music for a living. I have contemplated waiting for them to pass on, THEN I will go. Trouble is, IM already 51, and not getting any younger. And considering how my grandparents all lived into their 90s, its a good bet that my parents have a good 10-15 years to go. That would have me waiting till Im 65 to go.

When Jesus admonished the man who said he had to first bury his father in order to Follow Jesus, it wasnt like his dad just died, and the funeral was the next day. He meant, he wanted to wait until his father died, which could have taken who knows how long. SO, I think I need to go NOW. Living 1200 miles from them, I usually only see them once, or maybe twice a year anyway. If they get sick, I can just come home from the field to look in on them. All I know is that I have felt called to missions for years, and Im tired of making excuses.

John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited

I can hear the Lord's voice in your words and I do believe he is calling you to places where he isn't known.
Let me pray about this through the night and I will pass on any additional thoughts I have tomorrow.
Your hunger to be a disciple having given your all is inspiring. Makes me want to racket up my commitment just hearing you!

Howard Nason, Associate Pastor for missions at Northstar Church of God

Kurt, age is no big deal. I was 68 when I became a full time facility chaplain in a state prison. I retired when I was 73. Four months later a week after my 74th birthday I was invited to go to work with FEMA. After 15 deployment requests amd 13 actual deployments I retired in June of 2013 to be home with my wife. 6 months later, December of 2013 I was asked to serve a local church as their Associate Pastor for Missions. Today I had 7 people complete their orientation to be volunteers at the prison where I was the first full time chapalin. There is no retirement in God's army, but the eternal benefits are out of this world.
Dear brothers, family(Jerusalem) is your first ministry, beyond that, God will place your not where you feel you ought to be, but where He wants you to be. Wait upon the Lord and He will give you the desires of your heart through the leading of the Holy Spirit.

Carpe Diem,

Agape,

Esther Plastridge, Owner at KissingKoi Boutique

Kurt--if I may add (butting in) to your conversation--I love a wonderful couple of the Lord who are 84 and 85 years of age and they have just retired from Kingsway fellowship Int'l as director of missions. They continue to travel world-wide and their feet have touched 67 nations. They are called Papa and Mama world-wide.

There is nothing to say that you can't go on short term mission trips. With that said, I have not followed your conversations, I have just butted in with hopes to encourage you. Blessings Esther

Ed Considine - Trinity College Graduate-Jerusalem University-

Esther,

Let me add, not to minimize what you just said to Kurt, but the mission field for any true disciple of Jesus Christ Our Lord is AT EACH ONE'S FEET. It is here and now to give a reason for the hope in which we hope for. Each and every day is a new day. Are you ready today wherever you stand whoever you are?


John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited

Kurt:

Thanks for your honesty and your hunger for righteousness.
It lends itself well to propelling how we might all better live the Christian life - which is rudimentary to making Christianity alive in the generation that follows ours.
I do think the question you are asking yourself couldn't come at a better time. Clearly you are beyond the age of wanting to make a name for yourself, you are ready to serve others, to esteem the interests and aspirations of others above your own.
That comes more naturally to you than most, being a bass player and all. Bass players are used to providing the essentials of depth and rhythm to music without much fan fare.
I mean other than Charlie Mingus, Paul McCartney and John Deacon (of Queen fame) who can name a bass player?

I'm quite serious in proceeding along this line in contributing my two cents for what might lie ahead of you - as well as for many of us who are 50 plus in the church and wondering what's next.
In my case, I became a Christian through the Jesus People Movement in Philadelphia in the early 70’s, then joined a charismatic group in Toronto called Catacombs being one of several who wrote and played music central to our worship.
When the church imploded in the early 80’s my wife and I joined a local and very affluent suburban evangelical church. Although it seemed like a throw back to the early 50’s, it at least gave us the grounding we needed to ‘settle down.’

But in the early 90’s we started to wonder if we had settled down too much! When our eldest son came asking for a pair of Air Jordans (running shoes) at $150 without tax, we realized that we hadn’t provided our kids to any exposure to the world around them other than the privileged side of the street.

So we got involved in some inner city missions working with homeless and street people, people struggling with addiction, sexuality and poverty related issues and found ourselves somewhat contrary to the suburban church thing. I would preach on Sundays when the pastor was away but my sermons became a little hard to stomach. The appeals to seek justice and community alongside the poor did well with the youth but the older members complained I was too political, that ‘Jesus didn’t mean it when he said that following him would cost everything we’ve got!'

Participating in a small Anglican church in the City’s rougher neighbourhoods, it really hits home for us. Of the dozen or so people there, many live with mental health and addiction issues stemming from physical and/or sexual abuse they experienced as young children. And yet what these believers teach us about real faith matches that of any seminary.
God is always at work among the poor and he is ever looking for those who will work alongside him, even if it means reproach and being misunderstood.

I have no doubt you are cut out for the mission field whether here or oceans away.
There may be many who preach the word here, but there are too few who live it out. North America is not suffering from a lack of people preaching and teaching his word, but a lack of people living it out. Isn't it ironic that the one who became the symbol in the 20th Century for putting the Sermon on the Mount into practice wasn't a Christian but a Hindu named Gandhi? Will the one who comes closest in the 21st Century be a Muslim?
One would hope we as Christians might come closest, but as your entries repeatedly contend, we seem to be more interested in our prosperity and pre-eminence than we are in carrying a cross.

If you haven't read Shane Claiborne's 'An Irresistible Revolution', read it. Communities like a Simple Way are springing up throughout the US and Canada which look more like the church in Smyrna (Rev 2:8-11) than the church in Laodicea (Rev 3:14-20), which is the church too many of us attend.

Among the hurting - whether homeless, alienated, refugees, maligned or ignored - you will find your place.

Now that same sex marriage is legal... what should churches do?

From the Global Pastors Network

Now that same sex marriage is legal... what should churches do?

Timothy Curtiss, Pastor and Camp Director
Same sex marriage is now legal in Iowa. Some same sex couples have children. Some of them are seeking God. What should local churches do if one or both of the partners find God in Jesus Christ? What if they already have a relationship with Jesus and want to pursue membership? 
Any suggestions or ideas?

John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited
Great questions! 
Same sex marriage has been legal in Canada for over 20 years. 
When the church I was going to wanted to introduce a 'Standard Marriage Policy' saying the church would only marry and welcome into church membership heterosexual couples I wrote the church board questioning that policy. 
It is too long to repeat here, but it may be something you wish to read to get one opinion on the subject. 
See http://theo-flections.blogspot.ca/2011/08/thoughts-on-gay-marriage.html

Howard Nason, Associate Pastor for missions at Northstar Church of God
John - Because its legal doesn't make biblically moral. The churches have dived over that issue, but God's Word is not divided on the subject. 
Agape, Howard 

Charles King, Management Consultant & Christian Minister
Preach and teach the Word!

John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited
Timothy:
My direct response to your question is to welcome them should they come to your church.
If they do come, be assured they will not be coming without misgivings of their own. Regrettably many of them will have experienced ridicule and hatred from 'bible-believing' Christians, so if yours is a 'bible-believing' church, it will take much courage on their part to come in!
There are churches in both Canada and the United States who have become 'inclusive.' Probably the best known is Glide Memorial in San Francisco, which is worth exploring to get some history and perspective on how they have responded to this issue. 
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glide_Memorial_Church

Christopher Cooke, PFS, Financial Specialist

Continue to defend the gospel...

Michelle Enterline, Founder of Gospel of Peace Ministries

We has the body cannot obey the Laws of the Land if they are against His word. Just like Daniel obeyed God rather than the king of the land. We must deal with the homosexual just like we deal with any other sin. Teach and council those who participate in such a sin the biblical truth if they are willing to working on repentance then we must make a genuine effort to help them abstain from the sin. If they are willful desiring to stay in there sin then they must make a choice or find another congregation. God is very plain about not allowing Habitual sin in the camp they are to be put outside the camp for God to deal with. If they are a brand new believer then they must be allowed time and you must take each one individually. Most wont even come out if they believe it's a sin they may seek you for council and that is great. Just like many sins go hidden. habitual sin in my opinion is the most difficult to repent of. You has a pastor cannot help someone if they do not want to change or believe it is not a sin. Turn them over to God! If you really believe Gods word then your church will not marry any homosexual couple. Remember we must love not condemn We still have to account to God for the flock he has given us. Stand firm in this no matter the consequence we can not encourage sin.

Robert Dallmann, Director at ChristLife, Inc.
Matthew 5:32 - "But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of FORNICATION, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery." 
Fornication = Strong's G4202 - porneia - "illicit sexual intercourse - adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc. - sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18 - sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mk. 10:11,12" 
Seems to me... God saw this coming.

John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited
Timothy: 
I do agree the issue is a complex one and one that requires much prayer and spiritual wrestling. I know devout Christians on both sides of this issue and in my own life I have wrestled with this issue for years. 
Christopher sums it up perfectly when he says: 'defend the gospel.' 
The question I have and have had since the mid-80's is : 'What gospel?' 
The gospel of Romans 1: 18-25 or the gospel of John 8:1-12 and John 5:24,25 and other places where Jesus' response and welcome to persons whose sexual conduct was anything but biblical. 
One of the classic examples of this is his encounter with the woman at the well in John 4. Although he points out to her that she has had many partners, he doesn't reprove her for her behaviour; if anything he validates her passion by re-directing it from men to God! 
This would explain why Christians on divided on this issue. 
Jesus never once commented on the subject of homosexuality but repeatedly took issue with greed, self-righteousness, religious arrogance and wealth accumulation. And yet what church in North America would deny entrance and membership to anyone who was either greedy, arrogant or self-righteous? Were we, our churches would be less than 1/2 the number they are currently! 
So if a church decides to welcome LGBT persons on the same basis that they welcome greedy persons - it is in the hope that the church will be the agent of their transformation and if not, at least non-discriminatory in their approach to all people as Jesus was...merciful as our Father in heaven is merciful.

Christopher Cooke, PFS, Financial Specialist
Sound perspective...

David Corbin, Senior Group Internal Auditor
In the face of the current onslaught of the homosexual agenda against marriage, some Christian leaders are softening on the historic Biblical Christian position against homosexuality. There are different degrees of compromise.
Some for example, say they oppose ‘same-sex marriage’, but support ‘civil unions’ as an alternative. Others, adopting a ‘conservative position’, support the status quo of ‘homosexual rights’ laws granted already by governments and the courts, but don’t want any new ones. Some adopt an ‘apologetic’ position implying that the Church has been too harsh on homosexuality in the past. Some have succumbed to using newly phrased homosexual terminology such as ‘homophobic’ or ‘sexual orientation’ – which imply the normality of homosexuality. Many Christians very sincerely believe they are not compromising on the Biblical position, while in fact they are actually doing so. 
Christians who write submissions, articles and position statements on ‘same-sex marriage’ should be careful not to follow other misguided leaders in compromising the true Biblical position.

Chris Thompson, Follower of Christ, Pastoral Counselor, Seeking Full-time Employment
There are many great comments on this post. I would like to add one, although it may not be considered great. I do know of many churches that will not allow a homosexual couple who chooses not to withdraw from their co-relationship to join the church as a member. As far is membership goes, I can't say that I would disagree with this policy. I would, however, make sure that my policy was standard across the board while looking at homosexuality as sin against the body the same as you would look at other habits of sin.
As an example, if a known abuser of pornography were to ask for church membership, and would stand and affirm that he or she would never give up the sin of pornography, that should stand in the same category as a homosexual couple who refuses to live by God standard, or at least try. 
In order to grow spiritually, the goal of a Christian is to become more Christlike, and doing so includes separating themselves from sin the most that they can throughout their lifetime. The goal is not to fall back on grace and mercy and say that we are always going to be forgiven so why not continue sinning. The goal is to change behaviors that separate us from Christ.
I find a very irrelevant to argue whether homosexuality is a sin or not, as that point has clearly been answered in the Scriptures. We are told to love one another, and that would include those who consider themselves homosexuals, or more clearly defined as self confused about their sexuality. Every Christian should love those who are confused, and should continue to teach the Scriptures in the doctrine at every opportunity.
Love is not tolerance, and tolerance is not love. It is possible to love everyone but not tolerate everyone's behavior. That certainly follows Christ's teaching. 
I would never be one to try and keep God's word from anyone who wanted to walk in the doors of the church. But I would expect somebody whose goal is to grow in Christ to recognize their habitual habits and make goals through prayer to separate themselves from these sins as they grow more mature as a Christ follower.

Christopher Cooke, PFS, Financial Specialist

Well said...we should not only "speak" the truth in love but demonstrate it through love, without compromising Biblical beliefs.

Les Ullrich, missionary

Without the words of our bible we are not "a faith" and it is very clear on the subject of homosexuality. Let them sit in the pews, but marriage by a church has to be out of the question. If the church has the Holy Spirit dwelling, then there has to be convictions in a lifestyle such as this. Conviction should be something left to God. Our place is to love unconditionally and focus on Jesus Christ. 
It is my opinion that if we are seeking God the way we are supposed to be, that is, pressing into Him with everything we have and are, praise, daily services for the soul purpose of bringing him close, then we can hope that God, in His way, will sort it out for those individuals in time. If we as Christians are not touching the heart of God, then we might not be as far removed from where they are at as we might think.

Taffy Torongo, Student at HTC
In short I would say we are to love the sinner, but hate the sin! 
The Old Testament folk knew homosexuality as an abomination 
before the LORD. New Testament clearly shows God is not for it; 
Romans 1:24-31. Let us not condone the sin of homosexuality...

Timothy Curtiss, Pastor and Camp Director
John Deacon , thank you for you understanding responses. To the others... how do we keep the commands of love while holding to the truth?

Solomon Simon, Life To Life Ministres at Life To Life Ministries

Same sex marriage is biblically illegal and it is against the natural law. If the same sex marriage is right then what is the need of female gender. God never done mistake in His creation. How the same sex couples got children? Are they born from their own blood by their sexual life? If any of them seeking God He must repent, confess his sin and should turn from his old life and relation. That is the real seeking of God. If he is not willing obey the word of God let him go out of the congregation of saints. If that pastor is not willing to lead the church according to the word of God and fearing the authorities of this world, let him go out of church putting of his pastor-ship. He is not faithful to God and His word and to the church of God. A true congregation/Church of God must follow God's word. He must not govern the church of God according to the worldly government laws. He fearing the world, world rulers more than God and God's word. Cast out all the same sex couple from Lord's Church. They must separated and come to the right way what's the word of God says. Other wise their they are cheating God and His saints. Be cautious on devils devises.

John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited
Timothy: 
Reading again the issue you raise: 

'Some same sex couples have children. Some of them are seeking God. What should local churches do if one or both of the partners find God in Jesus Christ? What if they already have a relationship with Jesus and want to pursue membership? Any suggestions or ideas?' 
I get a sense - I could be wrong - the issue from your vantage point isn't whether homosexuality is wrong, since the church you attend affirms that. 
Your question is exclusive to the matter of how to receive a gay person should he or she come to your church, confess faith in Christ and want to join your community. 

You have one of three options: 

You could avoid, not allow them into your church, and most of all warn your kids not to have anything to do with them. 
Which would mean not allowing gay couples or their kids to get involved in local sports leagues, community organizations etc OR restrict your kids from organizations that allow for gays and their children - the public school system, boy scouts etc... 
It is an option that some have taken, but admittedly it's not very Christ-like. Jesus never avoided anyone, even the devil. 

The 2nd option would be to allow gays and their kids into your church, never wavering from the precept 'to love the sinner, hate the sin', a precept which never feels like love to the recipient. 
To guarantee that the influx of gays into your church didn't taint church doctrine nor compromise its definition of marriage, there would have to be frequent references to how much homosexuality displeases God, in the hope that doctrinal purity be maintained and marriage 'as God intended' promoted. 
To ensure the gay person wouldn't feel repeatedly targeted sitting in his/her pew; the preacher would have to proportionally preach on the sins Jesus took even greater issue with: greed, injustice and religious pride. That way, the homosexual would at least be consoled that he is not alone in his waywardness. He is in a church filled with sinners desperate for God's grace. 
The only problem with that option is the preacher/pastor would be so overwhelmed with the message of our variant sinfulness, there wouldn't be much room for grace or for the joy of being God's beloved despite our sinfulness. 

Which leaves your church with only the third option of welcoming gays into your church and let the ensuing relationships define what the church does with the consequent issues of membership and leadership. 

Think of how you'd approach this if the orientation was 'theological' rather than 'sexual.' For example - a group of Muslim kids affected by the good witness of your church's youth group want to join the church and bring their parents along. 
How would you as a church respond? 
My contention is - for the effect to be lasting, it wouldn't help if the pastor decided to devote the next year's sermons to bashing Muslims, Muhammed and the inferiority of their sacred text to ours. Neither would it help to avoid the differences between Islam and Christianity. Instead to convey truth with grace, mercy over judgment, love over coercion is vital. 
Otherwise, the Muslim contingent goes elsewhere, and their avenue to the gospel lost. 

For the pastor to go the 2nd mile with the Muslims in his pews, he would have to learn something of their religion to gain insight of what they stand to lose were they to become Christians. He would have to listen their stories well and discern if there are bridges already between their faith and his i.e. their humility, their concern for their neighbour's welfare - to ease their transition from Muhammed to Christ. 


So too with the LGBT community. To love them as Jesus does, you need to understand where they are coming from including listening to their life stories...especially the stories of those who have found Jesus and how they came to believe; many times in spite of the hatred and ridicule they encountered from the religious, Christian or otherwise.

Poverty and Wealth

from the Global Pastors Network

Simon Zelikman, at Emmanuel's Doorpost

Providing perpetual "benefits" to the "poor" people by politicians interested in their reelection only, is not helping the "poor". It is enslaving them to the pretentious benevolent providers self interests. 
"Those who will not work should not eat", is also a teaching of the Old and New Word. 
Do Not pretend that your utopian idea of 'social gospel' is anything like the one Christ, or Paul taught, It is NOT! 
Any able bodied man would have to work, and provide for himself, family, or others, in what ever capacity in those days, no self made "poor" bum would be perpetually tolerated, and if You do not understand this, and tech this to your "poor", You are Not teaching Christ! 

Social engineering by those who deem themselves to know better, and care more then that "other side", have always proven themselves false, serving only their self-gratifying interests, knowingly or not! Like a wolfs in sheep's clothing. 

We Are in this together, and the self proclaimed "benevolent" side, is forcing their ideas of "good" and "correct"on that "other" side, as in your proof text above, in the late nineteenth century. 

We are now very accustomed to hearing about the "New World Order", the New Social Justice! 
And Dear John, Kurt, and the rest of your bleeding heart social engineers, better then thou social society builders, are on the side promoting all the equally just for all, abortion, and gay marriage, and so much more of that other "social gospel", which Christ clearly warned His "side" all about! 
And for those who have eyes to see the difference between the "two sides"; Truth is growing clearer, and more in focus, every day!

John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited

Simon: 
I couldn't disagree more. But we've been over this ground before. No use re-hashing what's been rehashed too many times already. 

I do think the judgment James levies against the wealthy in his day is even more true in ours: 
"Look here, you rich people: Weep and groan with anguish because of all the terrible troubles ahead of you. Your wealth is rotting away, and your fine clothes are moth-eaten rags. Your gold and silver have become worthless. The very wealth you were counting on will eat away your flesh like fire. This treasure you have accumulated will stand as evidence against you on the day of judgment. For listen! Hear the cries of the field workers whom you have cheated of their pay. The wages you held back cry out against you. The cries of those who harvest your fields have reached the ears of the Lord of Heaven’s Armies. 
You have spent your years on earth in luxury, satisfying your every desire. You have fattened yourselves for the day of slaughter. You have condemned and killed innocent people, who do not resist you.' James 5:1-6 

If I weren't wealthy, I would be exempt from the Apostle's severe warning. 
But I am not exempt and it's not likely you are either.

Simon Zelikman, at Emmanuel's Doorpost

I am not wealthy, but I want to be, and a big part of this is being able to give things I am unable to now. 
Wealthy, is NOT a sin, condemning all wealthy unjustly, IS!

John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited

Oh Simon! 
Why would you want to be rich? 
The Lord himself calls the poor 'blessed', that 'theirs is the kingdom.' 
But 'woe' Christ says to the rich - 'you have your comfort already.' 
To his disciples including the wealthy ones Christ says: 'sell your possessions and give to the poor and you will have treasure in heaven' Luke 12:33 
The poor who have nothing have much room for Christ, they discover great riches in their faith. But the wealthy are sent away empty. Our possessions crowd out Christ. Rather than his word growing deep in us, it is rooted out by the cares and anxieties of trying to get enough into our bank accounts that we need not pray for our daily bread. 

As James writes: 
"Those who are poor have something to boast about, for God has honored them. And those who are rich should boast that God has humbled them. They will fade away like a little flower in the field. The hot sun rises and the grass withers; the little flower droops and falls, and its beauty fades away. In the same way, the rich will fade away with all of their achievements." 

And yet you Simon and I John want to be rich. Why? In obedience to Christ? Or because as Kurt Kelley has been so faithful to remind us - we have been so contaminated by our North American culture enraptured as it is with making money and making as much as we can! 
We aren't disciples of Christ for as long as we seek to be wealthy. Instead we are Christians who are doing our best to love both God and money. No wonder our faith in God is without power! 

Yes we have hit on the one thing that makes the Christianity of the West so blatantly ineffective when compared to the church of Acts 2. 
We love money too much. It is our golden calf and until we forsake it, we are wolves in sheep's clothing - claiming to lead people to Christ but directing them instead to our society's golden calves of wealth, privilege and power.

Simon Zelikman, at Emmanuel's Doorpost

John my friend, 
You are carrying things Way too far. I am unable to give, if I don't have anything, to give. 
I would love to open soup kitchens or orphanages in Russia, Ukraine, or..., but I can not. 

God never wanted His people to be beggars, it is clearly taught to work and strive to prosper, in God's way of course, and Abraham was very wealthy, Isaac and Jacob also, they yarned their prosperity, and they helped many to prosper also. 
Prosperous righteous man is not greedy for filthy lucre, he is a hard working man, in whatever occupation, blessed by God, and is as God intended for His people to be, always. 

"Christianity" of the "West" is very effective, and in many places, and in many ways! 
Is it going to resolve all problems? ....... Never. 

This world is going into apostasy, as Christ foretold it would, And God planned. This flesh world belongs to the prince of the pit, and I want to help as many individuals as I can to avoid that pit. 
I will gladly leave the "world" saving to the Social Engineers! 

God bless, 

Howard Nason, Associate Pastor for missions at Northstar Church of God
Top Contributor

In the Sermon on the Mount Jesus said, "Blessed are the POOR in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." I have worked since I was ten, and now at the robust age of 83 I have been called to be an Associate Pastor for Missions. I have been very blessed fimancially and can support our local church and ministries around the world. Its not our wealth that makes us good or evil its how we use that which God has entrusted into our keeping. "The love money is the root of all evil!" There are a multitude of Scriptures that support the idea of financial blessings through hard work and giving first to the Lord that which is His. Brother Deacon, your use of we is too inclusive and condemning without cause. Do not judge a man or woman by what they possess but by their deeds and how they use that which God has provided. 

Deborah Barbee, missionary at Chewelah, Abundant Life Church

I have been pondering on the subject this morning. Am I willing to give up EVERY-THING? MY children, MY family, MY friends, MY home. What if I lost the ability to do MY life work?How about MY church, MY mind, MY body. 
If I was confined to a bed, unable to move, in pain, incontinent, nothing belonged to ME. Unable to communicate. At the mercy of others that hated ME. 
Would I be able to praise God, knowing that my life was not in vain? 
That God was in control and I belonged to Him? 
Would I know that is God meeting my every need? 
That God is using me to His glory? 

I know may seem a little over the top for some of you. And it's not likely to happen to any of us until we are on our deathbed. 
Jesus didn't die on the cross, so we can have "things." 
WHAT NEEDS DO YOU HAVE THAT AREN'T BEING MET? God will never give us more than we can handle, if our eyes are stayed on Him. If we aren't satisfied with what we have now, perhaps God is waiting for us to be thankful and generous with what He has given us now.

Women and the Social Gospel

Another discussion from the Global Pastors Network...

John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited

One thing that's wrong with Christianity is the near absence of women in leadership, women as spokespersons for the faith, women theologians and indeed women's voices in this Global Pastors Network. 
Not that there aren't women present but too often they are seen as tag alongs, beside their man, supporting their husband but not accorded their full weight in voice, message and authority.
We can do better but the matter of how is something worth separate discussion. 

Howard Nason, Associate Pastor for missions at Northstar Church of God

AMEN! Brother John. I don't need to rehash comments from another discussion about women in ministry. God makes no exceptions to the call to ministry based on gender and neither should we. 

Agape, 

Howard 

Doug Greenwold, Senior Teaching Fellow at Preserving Bible Times, Inc.
Top Contributor

Howard, 

Depends on how you define "headship" as Paul uses it. Can a man be the spiritual head (having authority over) of his house and then go to church and have his wife be the pastor who exercises authoritative discipline over him? I don't think so. 

Once women are put in positions of spiritual leadership and authority over men, the unintended consequences become significant. Take any 100 women in the church and any 100 men and you will find that the women are invariably more spiritually mature than the men (statistically). Therefore if women are put in positions of authority over men, eventually the men will become "no shows. And what you have left is a matriarchal church. Think I'm kidding. Go into the intercity and take a census of those store front churches. You will find mostly women in leadership, the men are gone, and you are hard pressed to even find a teenage boy. The Black community demonstrates this reality in many ways. 

There is a reason God put one, and only one leadership position in the Church of Jesus Christ off limits to women. Just like the garden of Eden, there are many leadership trees that woman can pursue, but the position of spiritual authority over men is the one leadership tree not to be made available to women. it's God's way of protecting his church over the long haul. 

Not a popular message in today's let's-remove-all-glass-ceilings-for-women contemporary culture. But I am convinced that is the Word of God and we have to be very careful when we let the world's egalitarian culture force us into its mold. 

From a historical perspective, it has been of interest to me that the same creative hermeneutic that was used to justify women in the pulpit is now being used to justify gay and lesbian pastors. That should tell you something right there. 

Just a thought. 

Doug

Howard Nason, Associate Pastor for missions at Northstar Church of God

Doug, 

I have to disagree, every church i've pastored had about an equal number of men and women and in every one of the five churches the leadership was predominately men and in one church 60% of the congregation on any given Sunday were men. We had a storefront church for about a year and the congregation was pretty evenly divided. My wife and I shared leadership and none of the male staff resented her leadership. Since you have not posted a profile I can only surmise by the name of your organization that you want it to be just like Bible Times and you want women to be subserviant and second class citizens. I find your closing sentence offensive and reeking with hatred. Its your historical perspective not mine. By the way, how about posting hyour profile, you are free to peruse mine any time you want. 

Agape, 

Howard 

John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited

Doug: 

The issue of women in leadership is a contentious one but one that finds substantiation biblically. Among those Paul commends in leadership at the end of his letters to the Romans and to the Philippians are women. Among those he recognizes in Christian leadership before him were women. Priscilla and Aquila are examples of a couple whose ministry was deemed equal in the church. Philip had daughters who were prophets, which again were gifts of leadership and authority. 

True the Lord had 12 male disciples. But then the first witnesses of his resurrection were women and Jesus tore strips off his disciples for not believing what the women had told them about his rising from the dead. 

Each generation of the church has occasion to advance the freedom Jesus initiated with his death and resurrection. 
Slavery which the Bible doesn't take issue with, is nonetheless an issue the Lord tackled in the succeeding generations of the church. The same could be said about his overturning child labour laws, setting up hospitals to care for the sick, and institutions making education available to all. 

The Women's Suffrage Movement in both the US and Canada were lead by Christian women convinced of the equality God intended when He made them 'male and female in his image.' 

As one who is familiar with storefront churches especially as they impact high risk neighbourhoods in many of North America's urban centres, their presence if anything validates the truth of God's calling women into ministry and leadership. It scares me to think of how abandoned these communities would be were it not for the presence of God through these caring ministries. The fact they are more lead by women is a testament to their courage, their willingness to risk all, which we could all wish were more characteristic of men in Christian leadership. 

But leaving aside the issue of women in leadership, isn't something fundamentally wrong in Christianity when the dire issues facing women: poverty, imprisonment, genital mutilation, physical and mental abuse, etc. are ones which most churches choose to be silent about? Given the repeated advocacy Jesus made for the abused women in his day, this is grievous, a betrayal of the equality Christ calls men and women to: 
"For you are all children of God through faith in Christ Jesus. And all who have been united with Christ in baptism have put on Christ, like putting on new clothes. There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male and female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus." Galatians 3:26-28 NLT 

Until the church mirrors this kind of equality, we can't claim to being 'his new creation.'

Doug Greenwold, Senior Teaching Fellow at Preserving Bible Times, Inc.

Howard, 

I'm pleased you have had good experiences with men and women in your five churches. But that antedotal experience doesn't mean you can project that over all aspects of Christiandom. 

In the 1980's I spend years reading about the two competing perspectives on women in ecclesiastical authority over men. Wrote a couple of hundred pages on them. One was the historical biblical perspective which Jim Hurley develops in his book "Men and Women in Biblical Perspective." I found him to be balanced and thorough. In constrast to that, I also read a lot of recent creative hermeneutical work since the 1960's which I classify as the "Contemporary Egalitarian Perspective." This latter perspective has much to overcome, and I have found it wanting in trying to do so. The man/woman relationship is woven into creation's design - Adam was the first born, Eve's rib came from Adam and was to be his helpmate, Adam named Eve (the one who names in the OT economy is the one who has authority over), and all of this is pre-fall. Then in the NT we have Paul's requirement that Elders be men, etc. 

Having said that, I realize the easy, keep-em happy, easy to market, is to succumb to the cultural pressure and leave the historical biblical perspective of 19 centuries and embrace the new egalitariam perspective (paint in hardly even dry on it). But that doesn't make it God's way. 

Remember, I am only contending for the ecclesiastical authority issue - women are free to provide leadership in another 100 different ways. It's just that they should not be put in positions where they can disciple or excommunicate a man for reason previously articuled. 

I had to smile when you said I "reeked with hate" by simply observing that the same creative hermeneutic that people use to justify women in the pulpit is being recycled to justify gay and lesbians in the pulpit. I don't think the hundreds of people who know me would have ever enterained such a thought! When people say, "Well, Paul didn't really mean that, and here is some contextual gymnastics we can use to get around it to justify women as elders; that is exactly the approach taken by those promoting the gay/lesbian agenda for the pulpit. 

That's a small part of my perspective. 

Shalom, 

Kurt Kelley,  Bassist/Vocalist at Treehouse Productions. Community Outreach Worker, Volunteer at Nursing Homes, Churches, etc...

Wow Simon, you sure love to make broad assumptions! 
1) I dont hate Conservatives. I hate how the term Christianity has become convoluted and corrupted into a political cultural term, instead of referring simply to Christ. 

2) Communism and Socialism are nothing alike. Communism is what ruined Russia and Eastern Europe, and still has Cuba suffering today. Whereas, Socialism is what they have in Canada, Australia, much of Western Europe. Ive been to Canada dozens of times, growing up across the river in Detroit, and I live in Australia. One thing I know...Despite the misinformed hype, Canadians and Aussies LOVE their national healthcare. Plus, Canada and Australia are continually ranked higher than the USA in personal lifestyle satisfaction 

3) Im sorry to hear of your hatred of gays and liberals. Why? Because they are sinners? I guess then you must hate yourself too, because, you are also a sinner. Sure is a good thing Jesus doesnt feel the same way you do about sinners. 

Simon, IM curious as to how you feel about the passages at the end of Acts 2, and Acts 4, giving detailed descriptions of a collective community oriented attitude and mindset that sounds an awful lot like a 1st Century version of Socialism. Where everyone lived in community, and shared all of their possessions. Those who had excess gave to those who didnt have enough. Ooh, scary!! 

4) Acts 2:42 They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. 43 Everyone was filled with awe at the many wonders and signs performed by the apostles. 44 All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45 They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need. 46 Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47 praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved. 

4: 32 All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had. 33 With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And God’s grace was so powerfully at work in them all 34 that there were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35 and put it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to anyone who had need. 

36 Joseph, a Levite from Cyprus, whom the apostles called Barnabas (which means “son of encouragement”), 37 sold a field he owned and brought the money and put it at the apostles’ feet.

So how many Conservative Christians have you ever heard of who sold property, in order to give the profit towards those in need? 

Sad, how you ignore the bible verses that put personal greed, and selfish ambition in the same context and category as sexual immorality. 

Simon, I have Scripture to back up my position. How about you? (Conservative doctrine, and the Constitution is NOT scripture. Nor is Rush Limbaugh a saint, or an Apostle) Perhaps you should try reading A) the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man. (an allegory that perfectly describes wealthy American Christians, and their complacency towards the rest of the world, that is hurting both for basic resources, and the Gospel) 
And B) the Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector. You seem so certain that your sins are less severe than the liberal or homosexual. Jesus was pretty clear about that mindset. I can picture you at the temple, Simon. Standing tall, boasting about your own righteousness. Thanking God that you are not like that liberal, or that homosexual sinner.

Kurt Kelley, Bassist/Vocalist at Treehouse Productions. Community Outreach Worker, Volunteer at Nursing Homes, Churches, etc...

Addendum: I do not live in Australia now. I LIVED in Australia in 1991 and 1997.

Doug Greenwold, Senior Teaching Fellow at Preserving Bible Times, Inc.

John, 

I am well aware of how contentious this issue can be having lived through it in multiple church settings in different decades. In the 1980's I spent years reading about the two competing perspectives on women in ecclesiastical authority over men. Wrote a couple of hundred pages contrasting them. One was the historical biblical perspective which Jim Hurley develops in his book "Men and Women in Biblical Perspective," which I found to be balanced and thorough. In constrast to that, I also read a lot of recent creative hermeneutical work since the 1960's which I classify as the "Contemporary Egalitarian Perspective." This latter perspective has much to overcome, and I have found it lacking in exegetical and hermeneutical gravitas. I really do believe that the man/woman relationship is woven into creation's design - Adam was the first born, Eve's rib came from Adam and was to be his helpmate, Adam named Eve (the one who names in the OT economy is the one who has authority over), and all of this is pre-fall (which the egalitarians want to overlook). Then in the NT we have Paul's requirement that Elders be men, etc. 

Having said that, I realize the easy, keep-em happy, easy to market, is to succumb to the cultural pressure and leave the historical biblical perspective of 19 centuries and embrace the new egalitariam perspective (paint is hardly even dry on its logic). But that doesn't make it God's way. We don't raise hands and count them to determine God's Way. 

Remember, I am only contending for the ecclesiastical authority issue - women are free to provide leadership in the church in another 100 different ways. It's just that they should not be put in positions of authoritynwhere they can discipline or excommunicate a man for reasons articuled in a prior response. Suggesting that because Phillip had two daughters who prophesied means they exercised spiritual authority over men on an on-going basis in a body life setting is too much of a stretch for me. The citation of "male and female in His image" simply attests that both men and women are designed to be relational and to have a relationship with God. That is phrase is silent on the issue of ecclesiatical authority. Same for Romans "neither male nor female;" contextuially that is talking about salvation, not church leadership. 

That women have taken over leadership in many intercity churches is certainly better than having no leadership at all. I would agree. But it does not change the consequences and outcome that the more they took over leadership, the more men left over time. 

Yep, men have not always done a very good job of being spiritual leaders. Yep, men even abuse women with their misguided authority. But as we learn in Logic 101, abuse is never an argument for disuse. You don't correct that abuse by throwing the baby out with the bath water. 

Just a thought. 

Shalom, 


Ed Considine -Trinity College Graduate-Jerusalem University-

Only Satan goes outside of scripture who moves those who false teach to bring in damnable heresies and strange doctrines that are not of Jesus Christ of whom we are his disciples. Paul is the apostle to the gentiles that filled up what was left behind of the sufferings of Jesus Christ by an appointed dispensation of Grace. Pauline Theology is hated in todays world of the social gospel because the world hates God. Paul and Peter make clear what the relationship of men and women are in the church. NO ONE SHOULD GO BEYOND what the apostles of Jesus Christ say about the Doctrine ( That is the teaching of Jesus Christ ) Of Jesus Christ which were guided by The Spirit of Jesus Christ, The Spirit of Truth that guides us into all truth. This Truth sets us free. PS: It is The Fathers Doctrine!

John Snowdy, Owner, JSE Graphics. Print & Web Desgin, Global Video Marketing

Oh boy...not sure where to start on this one. I saw the post awhile ago and had some immediate responses but never took to time to get into the discussion. So here it goes. 

Asking what is wrong with Christianity is like asking what is wrong with civilization, Nothing, except for the fact that it is comprised of people. 

I've heard people that did not know any better say that Jesus started Christianity (no one in this discussion) But I wonder how many of us remember that Jesus was NOT a Christian. In fact, please correct me if I am wrong, even His disciples were not Christians, they were Jews that, like most of the early church, were attempting to live their lives according the teachings of Jesus. And as a result were called Christians by those that chose not to. 

Christianity is not a thing, a religion, an institution, a denomination, a title or position. It is a relationship with the Lord On High. If you are in Him and He dwells in you then you are a Christian. 

If we would all ( and I do include myself ) keep our eyes fixed on Jesus, Christianity would be just fine. Just sayin' 

God Bless

Simon Zelikman, at Emmanuel's Doorpost

Kelley, 

Your ... 
""I hate the term 'Christianity', because it has become corrupted by a false identity with c, and conservative American politics...""""" 
Sure does equate to "hate" of ..."conservative American politics", "conservative Americans", and "Christianity"! 

You also twist My words with Your lies ...""3) Im sorry to hear of your hatred of gays and liberals...""" 
I did Not say I hate Liberals or Gays, I said I hate the Liberal Gay Marriage and Abortion for all paid by all, and so on,..... As in, their (Liberals) ideas, forced on all, and a must to be excepted by all, or be labeled as bigot, and right wing this or that, zealot and so on. 
A whole lot like you! 

Don't know of Australia, but Canada I do know a little about and I can guarantee you for sure, No Way do all Canadians LOVE their health care, That, is a LIE! 
Many die waiting for their turn to be "cared" for, or get far sicker while suffering hoping for their turn. Canadians who have money, have no problem, or they go were they can get good care. 

Canada and Australia are Capitalist, they are free to pursue their personal goals within their laws, which govern all. 

Russia and Eastern Europe were Socialists, and I know a little about it having grown up there. 
Cuba is a good example of "community" living, and a Liberal like Sean Penn and Roger More LOVE! their health care, and want us to have it just as good, again a lot like YOU! 

Christ was NOT against prosperity, and the Father always wanted His people to prosper, this is FACT! and yes I can provide scripture! 
Christ taught to Not be "obsessed" with riches, but pursuit of happiness and prosperity for your family is NOT a sin! 
Joseph purchased that tomb for Christ, the anointing oil Mary anointed Him with cost a lot of money, do you soothsayers have a problem with that too? 

Conservative Christian Americans are far more generous with their giving then Liberals, which is also a FACT! 

I am willing to bet that Rush Limbaugh, who may not be a saint as You claim, but he gives a lot more to charities, every year, then Obama, Biden and Kerry combined! 
You want to find GREEDY Americans, look to Liberal Democrats, Not the Conservative Christians, who are the most generous people anywhere! 

You Kurt Kelly are full of ......... hot air, and do You think a happily married, actively practicing their Gay lifestyle, ........... would be welcomed into the Temple by Christ and the Father, or maybe an abortion provider with his well yearned tithing money? 
Do You Kurt Kelley? 
Why don't You Kurt Kelley tell us some more about that Hateful Christian Conservative?! 


Dear, Dear Brothers, are we getting any clearer on what is wrong with that so "Hated" 
"Christianity" today, ........... yet?

John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited

There's a story about a UK magazine asking for written entries in response to the question:
'What is wrong with the world?'
GK Chesterton the prolific and brilliant journalist submitted an entry with these two words:
'I am.'

Which in summary is the problem with any discussion about what's wrong with Christianity, with the country we live in, and the world we share. We can't get to the solution without identifying ourselves as part of the problem.

We are the problem built with an inner self-justification mechanism that fights God's will every step of the way.
And so we take the commands Jesus gave of selling one's possessions and turning the other cheek and loving one's enemies and we re-define them to suit our own purposes. In doing so we deplete and undermine and contradict the very words Jesus said to instead live lives that aren't not much different than our neighbour next door who has nothing to do with Jesus.
And then we ask ourselves the question: 'What's wrong with Christianity?' as though it's not connected to how far we have distanced ourselves from the radical way of life Jesus calls us to!

But rather than land on that negative assessment, I find myself responding to the question of 'what's wrong with Christianity?' as though the Lord himself might be interested in helping us!
Let me float this idea.

Just Jesus sets out in every generation to save people - some from prostitution, some from greed, some from religious arrogance, some from misplaced zealotry; he too saves people from institutional sins like slavery, ignorance, racism, prejudice, hatred, social and economic injustice etc. This is by no means a stretch - it is consistent with Jesus insistence that 'the Spirit of the Lord is upon me to...' (see Luke 4: 18,19) and God's breaking the shackles of the Egyptians to set his people free under Moses.

What is it in our time that Jesus is doing to set people free from long-standing oppression and captivity? For those of us having lived 50 years - we have seen the fall of the Iron Curtain, the implementation of civil rights legislation in the US, the dismantling of apartheid in South Africa without civil war, comprehensive and caring responses to the global crisis of AIDS, malnutrition and movement in the direction of gender equality, universal healthcare and education. 
No doubt, in all of these areas there is a long way to go - but in many of these 'deliverances' not only is Christ at work, but alongside him, his church. In fulfilling his command to love our neighbour, Christians have stood with the most vulnerable and great changes have occurred - which without the Lord's involvement would have never changed!

For freedom is the Lord's business however and wherever it occurs. And it is occurring in more ways than we know!
Some of what's wrong with Christianity has to do with our inability to see the Lord at work. 
Lord open our eyes!

Doug Greenwold, Senior Teaching Fellow at Preserving Bible Times, Inc.

John, 

Great point. The narcissism of this age has indeed found its way into the church. And if we are not careful, spiritual narcissism (what's in it for me) could easily become the malignant condition of the Western Evangelical church. Discipleship is less and less about picking up one's cross daily and following Jesus and more and more a journey into personal self-development - as if Jesus is the next best thing to Dr. Phil. Just listen to the conversations in our fellowships - my calling, my ministry, my Spiritual Gifts, even my Jesus. Maybe we should ban the use of the word "my" for a year in the church substituting "His" and "our" instead. As Snoopy once said to Lucy (or maybe vice versa), "I have found the enemy and it is us." 

Just a thought. 


John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited

Doug: 

I appreciate your response to the women in leadership dilemma and respectfully disagree - having lived through the same 1980's debate on the issue. One of the books I reference on the subject is Dr. Gilbert Bilezikian's 'Beyond Sex Roles'. As you know the good doctor had a huge role in the founding of the Willowcreek Church in Chicago. 

The bigger debate which well exceeds the confines of this discussion is whether we understand the working of God's Spirit in his Church as static or progressive. I lean towards the latter, allowing for the vulnerability and logical inconsistencies of such a position. The reason I take such liberty is the Lord did the same with the law of Moses: 'you have heard it said. But I say unto you...' thereby changing what it means to love your enemies, what the Sabbath is all about, the triumph of mercy over judgement, etc. Much of what Jesus was changing about divorce, retribution, sabbath etc were God's own words to Moses! 

Could it be that he is still at work changing longstanding prejudices against women, against minorities, against gays and other population segments Christians are more inclined to persecute than love? 
I don't know and I'm not sure you do either.

Doug Greenwold, Senior Teaching Fellow at Preserving Bible Times, Inc.

John, 

I remember Bilezikian's work well. One of the creative new exegetical and hermeneutical works that arrived on the horizon to try and undo the historical biblical perspective on men and women. It and others opened the door to the logic of "if even experts can't agree, why are we making such a big deal of this. Let's just to it." Did you ever wonder why works like Bilezikian's, which first started with Nancy Hardesty in the late sixities, coincided with the rise of radical feminism in American? Doesn't it seem strange that suddenly we were able to redefine our understanding of about a dozen key passages on this subject in a new way? What's the probability that all of those dozen passages were "wrongly" handled over 19 Centuries, but now in the 20th Century we are handling them "rightly" with a new understanding To me it just points out how much the church is vulnerable to societal trends, with some falling over themselves to try to respond (even pander) to them. Strikes me as practical theology via sociology! 

That's God's Spirit is alway moving and at work is a given. But great care needs to be taken when people approach the Scriptures and confuse a timeless principle with a practice of a certin period. Because when you think you've demonstrated that a certain practice is no longer in vogue (women and head dressings) that does not allow you to therefore throw out the timeless principle - make headship. 

It's increasingly lonely defending the historical biblical perspective on men and women in the Kingdom. It's not a great way to make friends. I spent three decades in sales and markeing and I know how much easier it is these days to "sell" the new creative exegesis and hermeneutic (to people lacking critical thinking skills- I'm sure you are the exception - who don't understand either exegesis or hermeneutics) than to defend the historical biblical position. But The Holy Spirit hasn't released me to do that. 

Today's thought. 

John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited

Doug:

Love the way you think and know that were we part of the same neighbourhood and church community, our disagreements may be many but our sense of brotherhood strong! 
I have some feeling for your loneliness, though not in the area of 'historical biblical perspective.' 
Mine is more in the area of my vocation - I am a business person swimming upstream against the strong currents of greed, personal gain at the expense of my poor neighbour, unfettered capitalism - in short: 'the politics of Cain.' See http://www.homelessguide.com/2011/07/politics-and-religion.html

I do think that sometimes God uses the world to provoke, remind and re-awaken Christians what we are to be about. Gandhi reminded Christians that there is substance to the Sermon on the Mount; that Christians were meant to live as though turning the other cheek and loving one's enemies weren't just platitudes but God's expectation of how we as Christians should be living. 
As extreme as the feminist movement was, it brought to the fore the inequality of men and women both in the world and in the church and reminded us 'that male and female, God made them in his image.' 
Would the Christian churches in the US and the Christian churches in South Africa be forced to revise their theology against blacks had it not been for Martin Luther King, Malcolm X, Stephen Biko and Nelson Mandela?

Doug Greenwold, Senior Teaching Fellow at Preserving Bible Times, Inc.

John, 

While the Bible has been abused to justify slavery, it does not therefore follow that the Bible is wrong and should be ignored. Just because men have not done their best to honor women when they (men) where in ecclesiastical leadership does not mean therefore that the historical biblical perspective on men and women has to be overthrown. Rather it means we have to correct the abuse and restore it to God's intended balance. 

Food is good, but food can be abused into obesity. That does not make food inherently bad. Water is good, but too much water imbibed changes the elecrolyte balance in the bloodstream risking cardiac death. That does not make water bad. In fact in many parts of the world, water is life sustaining. The fact that something can be abused, does not mean it is inherently wrong and needs to be discarded. It just means we have to correct the inbalance and bring it back to the middle of the road wher moderation is to be found. 

An old pastor once said there are ditches on both sides of every road. Just because the historial biblical perspective has been abused by fallen men inappropriately put into leadership positions does not mean we should throw it out and go to the ditch on the other side of the road with a new creative hermeneutic that puts women in positions of ecclesiatical power and authority over men. That is a slow, but inevitable slide toward a matriarichal church. Rather it means we men have to repent and bring our God endowed leadership back to the middle of the road doing everything we can to develop and put women into leadership in dozens of roles and postions that do not have ecclesiatical authority in their job decription. 

Have to teach a week-long "Bible Alive" contextual immersion experience starting this afternoon to pastors, leades, authors and serious students of the Bible. Something I love to do. We deal with biblical geography, culture, literary form, history, and the visualization of passage sites to discern "original meaning" of the text. Very exciting. And we won't get within six miles of this men and women leadership issue! So I will now be email quiet for the better part of a week. 

Shalom, Shalom, 

Kurt Kelley, Bassist/Vocalist at Treehouse Productions. Community Outreach Worker, Volunteer at Nursing Homes, Churches, etc...

John Deacon, speak up. Youre Canadian. How do you feel about your national healthcare system, versus the American free market, great if you can afford it, healthcare system? And, do you know of any of your Canadian compatriots who would prefer the American system over the Canadian system?

Kurt Kelley, Bassist/Vocalist at Treehouse Productions. Community Outreach Worker, Volunteer at Nursing Homes, Churches, etc...

Simon, has anyone ever told you you seem angry alot? Anyway, concerning Conservative Christians, pretty much all of my Christian friends here in South Florida are strict conservatives politically. Thats just the nature of the area here. Most white conservative Christians live a lifestyle that insulates and isolates them from the common problems that plague the urban areas that lie safely outside of their gated cul de sac communities. Since they never interact with those outside their culture, they rarely develop any understanding or empathy for those that are different. 

Concerning homosexual marriage, I would never go to a church that endorsed, or approved of homosexual marriage, or that ordained homosexual leadership or staff. I never said it wasnt a sin. WHat Ive been saying is that, in Gods eyes, we are ALL sinners, and ALL equally in need of God's grace and forgiveness. There is no levels of sin. THATS my problem with Conservative mindset. They single out the sins they personally dont struggle with, in order to try to portray those sins as worse than their own. That is exactly what the Pharisees did. 

Paul was clear about us NOT judging those outside the church. He said to expell the evildoer from AMONG you. Do not associate with one who calls himself a brother, but indulges in evil behaviour. However, it is up to GOD to judge those OUTSIDE the church. They havent been enlightened to the Truth that sets them free. How can you expect them to behave as if they have been? 

Simon, let me ask you. What is it that makes you a Christian? Jesus, or your own righteous behaviour? And what brought you to Christ in the first place? His grace and invitation? Or did you change your behaviour first, in order to make yourself acceptable in His eyes? Our call and commission is not to force unbelievers to behave, think, and live like we do. Our call and commission is to introduce them to the only one who CAN save them and redeem them from their self destructive behaviours, and HE cleans them and changes their hearts.

John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited

Dear Kurt:
Thanks for your appeal for me to speak up about the Canadian health care system. I have done this elsewhere as Simon can attest to, since it has come up before in previous discussion groups.
If the issue being debated here was: 'What's wrong with the US that isn't wrong about Canada?', not only I but about 30 million other Canadians would say our health care system. 
But since that isn't the issue, I am going to leave it be.

Ed Considine -Trinity College Graduate-Jerusalem University-

John, 

Who defends Jesus Christ? Who' s Spirit is that? Does that Spirit need our Help? This is the relationship between Faith and Grace? WHAT IS YOUR FAITH? WHAT IS AND WAS AND WILL BE OUR SAVIOURS FAITH? 


John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited

Dear Ed: 

Your question reminds me of something Charles Spurgeon wrote: 

'A great many learned men are defending the gospel; no doubt it is a very proper and 
right thing to do, yet I always notice that, when there are most books of that kind, it 
is because the gospel itself is not being preached. 
Suppose a number of persons were to take it into their heads that they had to defend a lion, a full-grown king of beasts! There he is in the cage, and here come all the soldiers of the army to fight for him. 
Well, I should suggest to them, if they would not object, and feel that it was humbling 
to them, that they should kindly stand back, and open the door, and let the lion out! 
I believe that would be the best way of defending him, for he would take care of himself; and the best “apology” for the gospel is to let the gospel out.'

Ed Considine -Trinity College Graduate-Jerusalem University-

Brother John,

I agree with you 100% about the Gospel. ( good news there is forgiveness for the sin of the world ) Let us however agree to the penalty of today's Social Gospel: --> "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed." 
The Holy Bible : King James Version. electronic ed. of the 1769 edition of the 1611 Authorized Version. Bellingham WA : Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1995, S. Ga 1:6-9

Brother ED

John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited

Brother Ed: 
The social gospel is not another gospel. It is the gospel alongside the gospel of personal salvation. It is not aimed at just individuals but at nations. Not only as individuals will we stand at the judgment seat of Christ, but as nations as well. 
Trying to sever one from the other is like separating sodium from chloride. Together they make salt, separate from each other they are worthless. 
Acts Chapter 2 is the evidence of the working of the gospel on both individual and community. They were the city set on a hill - not only giving evidence to individuals of the power of Christ, but to all society of what God's kingdom looks like - a social entity where there were no poor among them and possessions belong to all.

Ed Considine -Trinity College Graduate-Jerusalem University-

John, 

I disagree with your analysis of a social gospel. Let me repeat again what The Word Of God has to say about the record God gave about His Son which is The Gospel Of Jesus Christ in case you did not hear it: --> "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed." 
The Holy Bible : King James Version. electronic ed. of the 1769 edition of the 1611 Authorized Version. Bellingham WA : Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1995, S. Ga 1:6-9 


Howard Nason, Associate Pastor for missions at Northstar Church of God

@ ALL please read Matthew 25 verses 31-46. That is Jesus' social gospel, its a part of our witness as Christians, so please stop your foolish disputations and get about our Father's business. Its the most rewarding and powerful demonstration of God's love and His grace that He allows us to be Hismessangers of the Gospel and the dispensers of His mercy. 

Agape, 

John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited

Ed:
It could be that your resistance to 'the social gospel' is in the context of its emergence in the history of American Christianity.

One definition of the social gospel reads:
"A religious movement that arose in the United States in the late nineteenth century with the goal of making the Christian churches more responsive to social problems, such as poverty and prostitution. Leaders of the movement argued that Jesus' message was as much about social reform as about individual approaches to salvation."

Its emergence created a split in American Christianity between the 'Fundamentalists' - Christians alarmed by the watering down of the fundamentals of the faith concerning the virgin birth, the resurrection, the divinity of Christ etc - and those Christians who discarded such 'fundamentals' to emphasize the social ramifications of what Christ taught.

Like all splits, there were truths embodied in each and truths forsaken by each - to the detriment of both sides. In separating one from the other both were disabled. For Christ embodies both individual and social gospel. He not only transforms the human heart, he transforms societies. He calls us not only to be individual witnesses, but into community where he is the head with each of us unique and yet belonging to one another.

The gospel is both individual and community because God is both individual and community. Not only are we to be witnesses of the fundamentals of the faith; corporately we are the witness of God's new creation, his visible presence in the world.

Referencing the particular passage you've quoted twice from Galatians - the 'other gospel' was something other than the 'social gospel.'

"Oh, foolish Galatians! Who has cast an evil spell on you? For the meaning of Jesus Christ’s death was made as clear to you as if you had seen a picture of his death on the cross. Let me ask you this one question: Did you receive the Holy Spirit by obeying the law of Moses? Of course not! You received the Spirit because you believed the message you heard about Christ. 
How foolish can you be? After starting your Christian lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort? 
Have you experienced so much for nothing? Surely it was not in vain, was it?" 
Galatians 3:1-4
The 'other gospel' the Galatians had been bewitched by was that of the Judaizers intent on taking away their freedom in Christ to bring them under the law of Moses, insisting they be circumcised.

There are 2 verses in Galatians which capture both the individual and social components of the gospel.
"In fact, James, Peter, and John, who were known as pillars of the church, recognized the gift God had given me, and they accepted Barnabas and me as their co-workers. They encouraged us to keep preaching to the Gentiles, while they continued their work with the Jews. Their only suggestion was that we keep on helping the poor, which I have always been eager to do." Galatians 2:9,10

Note what is included in the commissioning of Paul and Barnabas by the 'pillars of the church' - Peter, James and John:
They are to 'keep preaching the gospel to the Gentiles' 
AND 
they are to 'keep on helping the poor.'

Going back to the question of 'What's wrong with Christianity and what can we do to fix it?' - it is wrong whenever we try to split the gospel into private or social, into preaching or activism as though one is the enemy of the other. 
We deprive the gospel of its power when we try to divide what God has joined together. We can fix that by agreeing that whatever our ministerial calling: preaching or activism, we are in this together!