Another Global Pastors Network Discussion (debate)
Bill DeDual, Ordained Minister at The House of the Nazarene
How is the Christian religion different from all the other world religions? by Genesis to Revelation whatshotn.wordpress.com
William Mayor, scholar at self employed
I must say that at one point in time I would have found this article very good. However, since then I have studies a lot more about the Bible as well as other religions. I would still argue that Christianity is better than other religions or faith systems, but I would use a far different approach, and would also restrict my arguments to those who have the knowledge to appreciate the difference rather than the common mass of humanity.
Raymond Driskill, Evangelist, at Wake Up Call Ministries
When I look at the reality of God and the Christ; the word religion does not fit. Let's say I have a friend I trust completely; is he a religion? Certainly he is not. Then I would say that reality is better than non-reality as in religions in the world. Satan can be a great influence in all false thoughts of some other gods that we call religions. Then serving Christ, the truth, is far better than serving a lie. I never refer to Christianity as a religion like the rest of the world believes; He is reality.
Patsy Adams de Liclan, Promotora en ACBN Radio Maranatha
FOR YOUR INTEREST: In a break-down of world wide of religions as stated in the CIA world fact book 2012 found on the Internet. there are listed the main religions in the world, but also percentage of agnostics and atheists also listed in the religions section. So Christianity was the biggest at 31.59% OF THE WORLD POPULARION, followed by Muslim 23.2% Hindu 15%, Buddhist 7.1% …. And finally atheist 2.01%. .
Keith Mutlow, Sector Protech Services
The word religion and Christianity should not be in the same sentence, if you read Matthew 23 you will see what JESUS has say about religion and religious people
Christianity and its believers in Christ have a personal relationship with God the Father God the Son and God the Holy Spirit nothing else will suffice
Bishop Dr. O. K. (Ken) Neal, International Prayer Pastor at Acts Ministry Church International
"Other faiths follow men that were once alive and are now dead. We follow a man that was once dead and now is alive forevermore." author unknown -k-
Laird Ballard, Pastor at New Life Baptist Church
William..to say that "Christianity is better than other religions or faith systems" is the definitive example of understatement. Only through faith in Christ can mankind be reconciled to God. Whatcha thinkin brother?
William Mayor, scholar at self employed
Laird, I am thinking that there is limited OBJECTIVE evidence that Christianity is better than other religions. Bear in mind that to cite the Bible is not objective. The words recorded in the Bible are objective to be sure, but only as they are recorded in the original language in the specific manuscript that one is looking at. As soon as we translate them into another language, say English, or decree what the intent of the writer was when he or she recorded the words, we introduce a purely subjective element.
Further I would note that to say that Jesus rose from the dead might well be factual, but that does not guarantee that any other part of the Bible is accurate. And I would note that since there are what looks a lot like contradictions between Paul's letters and some accounts in Acts, that the historicity of Acts could be questioned. Admittedly these problems might be solved by various means, but even so there remain other potential difficulties in the recorded accounts.
We then end up though with the question of, what difference between other religions and Christianity that can clearly stand? Or to put it another way, what do you say or do to convince the Tibetan Buddhist monk who nods and states that you have a good understanding for your level of enlightenment, that you know something that he does not? What can you bring to the discussion that is not cannot be dismissed as just what you believe?
Laird Ballard, Pastor at New Life Baptist Church
William, forgive me but such naked ambivalence is the heart of unbelief. At his point I would have to say: forever learning but never coming to a knowledge of the truth. I do not mean to be rude, but really hiding behind the pretense of total subjectivity makes you a poster child for post modern pragmatism.
William Mayor, scholar at self employed
Laird, you answered as I expected. So let me ask you how you would try to witness to a Tibetan Buddhist monk and expect success, bearing in mind that they are fully aware of the traditional evangelical Christian approach, and will respond much like I did.
My approach is definitely different in that I work totally with things that we can agree on at first. I would seek to identify an objective problem, that is one that we can both agree exists for both the two of us as well as anyone else who would be around. I would then ask about how he would deal with the problem, and would probably get a standard answer something to the effect that he has learned not to let it bother him and that anyone can learn such a response. I would then ask if it would not be better to cause the problem to not exist for anyone, which would most likely evoke a totally puzzled response as it is not possible to do within Tibetan Buddhism. I would then demonstrate how simple it is to do from within Christianity, once one has learned how, which probably in excess of 99% of Christians have not done. Then from that basis we may discuss which religion is superior.
You see, the difference between the standard approach and mine is that mine relies of objectivity, not subjectivity. That is, this is an objective problem, it can be measured scientifically (try measuring sin via science), it is present for any and all around, outside of Christianity there is no permanent way to deal with it but from within Christianity it can be done.
Simon Zelikman, at Emmanuel's Doorpost
Recorded History.
Laird Ballard, Pastor at New Life Baptist Church
William...I agree that it is an objective problem that can be answered through shared goals, experiences, and the seeking of common ground. On those issues we seem to agree. I am all for bringing science into the conversation as well.
Encountering a Tibetan monk with expectations of winning him to Christ on the first shot is not in my scope of thinking. I honestly don't believe that it would be possible. Yet, if one took the time through many conversations, then one might at least cause the monk to rethink his views. I might venture into discussing Pure land Buddhism as it is found mainly in Japan and discuss the similarities and see what the response would be.
As to their being limited objective information regarding Christianity's superiority, you're correct. For if Christ is not risen our faith is in vain. But Christ has risen and I believe that the evidence points that direction. Not subjectively but objectively!
Thank you for the wonderful tit for tat conversation. It has been enjoyable. If we continue, I hope it remains the same.
Simon Zelikman, at Emmanuel's Doorpost
Fulfilled Prophesy and Recorded History.
Paul Bucknell, President & Founder of Biblical Foundations for Freedom
There are many answers to this question as there are many religions! Let me be a bit more specific by providing 13 unique aspects of Jesus, especially presented against humanism-for most of us, the most common religion around us that persistently invades our homes and churches. http://www.foundationsforfreedom.net/References/NT/Gospels/John/John01.01_13.html
Michael Thompson, Lead Pastor at Faith Evangelical Free Church
Couple things....first, let's not get hung up on the word religion. The term "religion" is actually used in a neutral sense. The scriptures speak of "true and acceptable religion." With that said; Christianity is the only religion or faith that adequately deals with PAST sin. No other religion or form of "realization" or "nirvana" or "law following" adequately deals with past sin. Is there anyone but Jesus that died for our sin and rose again? The proofs of his work even from a secular standpoint far surpass the threshold for authenticity.
John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited
The Oxford Dictionary defines religion as 1) the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods 2) a particular system of faith and worship 3) a pursuit or interest followed with great devotion - i.e. 'consumerism is the new religion'.
I suppose in asking 'which is the best religion', the question is 'best at what?'
Best at making its adherents do what it teaches?
The best in terms of its holy book, the one with the best hymns, the best dogma, the best holidays?
William Mayor is right. It is subjective. Each of us believes our religion to be the best, otherwise we'd give it up for something else.
Religions having wide historical expanse are indeed commendable but does that make them the best? Each of them embrace their own logic to convince others outside their beliefs that their religion is superior.
Islam refers to itself as 'The Final Revelation of God.' Is it?
Christians think not, but Muslims think so. What proof is there for which one is better?
The Bible defines religion not in terms of better or best, but in terms of its purity.
'Pure religion is this,' writes James, 'to visit orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself uncontaminated from the world.' (James 1:27)
As to how well Christianity does in the context of the former i.e. visiting orphans and widows, only God knows whether we're best at that or not. I pray we are!
In terms of keeping ourselves uncontaminated from the world, I afraid we do badly on that count. Our 3 highest holidays - Thanksgiving, Christmas and Easter' - are so contaminated by consumerism it could easily be said that none of the three are 'Christian' anymore.
Reading 1 John 4:20 - connecting one's love for God with love of neighbour, I suppose the best religion is the one which loves its neighbours best.
Again on that count, I pray we Christians do well. Indeed as Jesus tells us in the verses about his separating the sheep from the goats on the Last Day (Matthew 25:31-46), how we treat the 'least of these' is the only religion that matters.
Arthur Shady, Evangelist
Simple. Our founder was crucified, buried and rose (resurrection) from the dead.
All the founders of all the other religions died and their bodies are still in their graves.
Emmanuel Mtoi, PASTOR at Evangelical Lutheran Church in Tanzania
Just simple, Jesus is the only son of Gog, the only saviour through his death on the cross and also the way, the truth and the life.
Simon Zelikman, at Emmanuel's Doorpost
Our "Founder" is the Almighty Father of all, and His Son is our Lord, The only Way back to His Father and ours, all in One Holy Spirit!
The only Holy book which is Fulfilled Prophesy, Recorded History, and Prophecy unfolding in front of our faces, many others understood yet to unfold as written thousands of years ago, ....... I believe!
To my knowledge, the only true supernatural Holy Word predicting the New World Order we all face, predicted in BC and AD, and so much more!
And my Faith is only made stronger with understanding, and my personal confirmation of the Reality that things Spiritually written can be understood by the same Spirit ONLY, and without truly seeking, and in The "only" truthful Way; And No one can receive this truth " thinking that there is limited OBJECTIVE evidence that Christianity is better than other religions."
I Cor 2: 9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
And the "natural" man in these verses, is not just some atheist, but a professed "believer" who is unable to see things spiritually discerned, .... I believe!
! Cor 1: 22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
God bless His men with eyes to see His Truth by the Holy Spirit!
Simon/Christian Israelites
Gary Rucci, Director at AOG GB
What makes christinaity more significant (powerful or plausible) than other religions? The answer is found in the nature of the creator of the 'religion' (as you refer to it). Christianity's founder is unique and incomparable in that he is truly human and divine - Emmanuel - God with us! The Godhead incarnate. He fuflfilled all prophecies concerning Himself and is the only 'religious leader / founder' who was resurrected from the dead. The resurrection of Christ is the cornerstone of the gospel - see Pauls teaching especially 1Cor 15. It's the resurrection that sets Christ and Christianity apart from all others. That's why the doctrine of the resurection is fiercely debated by other religions and philosophies. Please read Josh McDowell 'More than a Carpenter' or Ravi Zacharias' 'Jesus among other God's. Hope this helps.... www.garyrucci.com
John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited
If the question is:
'How is the Christian religion different from all the other world religions?', then the comments above are truly helpful. Certainly the proclamation of both Christ's death and resurrection are the very thing that make Christianity different than other religions.
When I read the article linked in Bill DeDual's heading, the emphasis clearly shifts from how the Christian religion is 'different' to how the Christian religion is 'better' than other religions.
One can be objective in identifying the differences between Christianity and other religions simply by listing the main tenets of belief of each religion and recognizing the differences.
Where it becomes problematic is when the discussion shifts from 'different' to which religion is 'better.' It is no longer objective but subjective - a kind of 'my dad is better than your dad kind of debate' - one more likely to create animosity than build relationships.
This is an important distinction. One of the great challenges and opportunities of our time - especially in the multi-faith environments many of us live and work in, is the sharing of our faith with Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists and other faith communities.
If we try and build relationships with people of different faiths on the premise that 'my religion is better than your religion' we won't get any further than the two boys in the schoolyard fighting about which of their dads is better.
A better place to start is to discover what we have in common and discover in the course of our ongoing conversation where the differences are. If Christianity is as unique and primary as we in this Network believe it is, honest dialogue as well as honest living and loving, will make this clear!
Simon Zelikman, at Emmanuel's Doorpost
Dear John ............
Here is another little riddle for your entertainment, ... :)
If a man proudly supports and identifies himself with a leader, and his party, which spent 640+ million dollars on just the website for an "affordable" healthcare act, which is an undisputed abortion, and since there is about 330 million people to "benefit" from this benevolent act, and the Fact that this means that every single person in the whole country could have been "gifted" 2 million dollars by this benevolent leader, party and supporters; Why would anyone spend any time with this wise man's opinions, such as ......
""This is an important distinction. One of the great challenges and opportunities of our time - especially in the multi-faith environments many of us live and work in, is the sharing of our faith with Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists and other faith communities.
If we try and build relationships with people of different faiths on the premise that 'my religion is better than your religion' we won't get any further than the two boys in the schoolyard fighting about which of their dads is better.
A better place to start is to discover what we have in common and discover in the course of our ongoing conversation where the differences are. If Christianity is as unique and primary as we in this Network believe it is, honest dialogue as well as honest living and loving, will make this clear! """
Hoping my riddle and point, is clear.
John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited
Dear Simon:
Only because you are not an easy man to interpret...
Is your point that because my politics may differ from yours, there is no reason to hear me regardless of what I'm saying?
If that's true, and you and I were in the building that I knew was on fire, you'd have to hear that from someone else before you'd respond. And it might be too late!
If that's the case, the issue is a matter of your hearing and not what I'm trying to say.
It does remind me of something Ruth Graham said about her marriage to Billy Graham - 'he relied on me to disagree with him whenever I had second thoughts about what he was doing. As he put it: "if both of us always have the same opinion, one of us isn't necessary!"'
If both you and I as fellow Christians had the same politics, one of us wouldn't be necessary. Because we don't, I think both of us are.
Simon Zelikman, at Emmanuel's Doorpost
John,
Your,
""Is your point that because my politics may differ from yours, there is no reason to hear me regardless of what I'm saying? """
My ........
No, not at all, I pray to stay humble enough to hear and consider all voices, and after hearing your comments on Republican this, and Conservative that, I wanted you to humble yourself, and to hear your own voice, and try to remember that you are a professed man of God first, an American second, and Democrat .... sometime, and that professing to follow something or someone, means you stand for all things they stand for, or to be wise enough to separate yourself from things against your professed ...... first allegiance.
If one is not able to be self critical and strong enough to be Objective, how can he hear, see, or judge anyone, or anything, in the same way.
John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited
Dear Simon:
We are off topic so this will have to do by way of an apologetic.
I am Canadian, so I am neither Democrat nor Republican. More importantly as a Christian, I am neither Conservative nor Liberal, although if pressed my politics are left of centre, left of Obama.
My politics pertaining the economy are in line with the OT and NT standard of 'the one who has much should not have too much and the one having little not too little' (Exodus 16:18, 2 Corinthians 8:9)
My politics re: social care is that we are our brothers and sisters keeper and they too of us.
I am in no position to comment on my humility or my willingness to hear contrary points of view. One of the reasons I enter into these conversations is to hear other points of view.
In terms of the Global Pastors Network my politics are more to the Left than most and that's a good thing. To differ gives us occasion to test what we really believe.
John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited
I have recently been involved in a multi-faith venture in Regent Park - one of Toronto's poorer communities - to engage various faiths (Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, Buddhist, Native Canadian, Jewish and Hindu) in issues of consequence to poor communities: i.e. youth unemployment, limited job opportunity, gang warfare, racial conflict and community development.
It is in this venture that I have learned the discussion of where our respective faiths align, as well as where they differ, inspiring with multiple opportunities to deepen relationships among people who otherwise would be strangers and divided from each other.
I really don't think the conversations would go very far if rather than 'differences' being discussed, the issue of whose religion is better were the topic.
One amazing thing that happened at an 'all faiths' event we had 4 Saturdays ago - was some Muslim women - all under 30 - spoke openly about the oppression and the second class status they struggle with as Muslim women. With that kind of honesty and openness, it is easier to distinguish how the liberation Jesus offers is without discrimination to men and women...even allowing that the Church (Catholic, Evangelical etc) has been remiss in giving women the full place and authority Jesus intended...
William Mayor, scholar at self employed
I would also agree that where faiths are in agreement seems far better to concentrate on rather than where they differ, and trying to decide which faith is better is almost a certain way to provoke trouble, especially when Christians seek to claim the high ground. Now once we have established our commonalities with other religions we might well have a basis from which to begin to compare our differences and to allow members of other faith traditions to decide that Christianity is better, or not, depending on how they perceive what we Christians present rather than what we proclaim.
Simon Zelikman, at Emmanuel's Doorpost
Dear John,
It was very kind of you to send this email to me privately, and a full 16 hours after my post you are the only one, I wonder if others were just as ........... kind?
"""""""Dear Simon:
To quote you -
"If a man proudly supports and identifies himself with a leader, and his party, which spent 640+ million dollars on just the website for an "affordable" healthcare act, which is an undisputed abortion, and since there is about 330 million people to "benefit" from this benevolent act, and the Fact that this means that every single person in the whole country could have been "gifted" 2 million dollars by this benevolent leader, party and supporters; Why would anyone spend any time with this wise man's opinions, such as ...... "
You may want to check your math - $640 Million divided among 330 Million Americans works out to be less $2 per American, not $2 million each.
Now if we could convinced the US government to cut its military budget in half (over $640 Billion), that would put a lot of money into the pockets of Americans that they could use to buy houses and nutritious food and pay off debt and donate to Christian missions etc... """"
It is kind of hard to remember our old math with all those trillions, billions and other Liberal to the left of Obama bazillions... :)
Like todays magicians tricks plainly prove; ..... We choose to believe "Facts" even when our own eyes tell us otherwise.
Just as many wise men before were fully convinced of a flat earth, many Christians today are convinced of their "Facts" like 6.000 year earth, rapture, saved always saved, and much more.
Dear John, if you are left of Obama and not a liberal, (whatever that means), do you really believe your Canada would still be there if US evil military did not do as it did for the last 200 years?
Do you really believe Christianity would be the dominant religion today without any military action, and do you really believe that Liberals like yourself are strengthening our common Faith by all your loving appeasement ...... of all?
God's Word never compromised, or acceptingly blended with other "equally valid" religions, we are commanded to stand on His Truth, and we do Not force our Faith on anyone, but we do fight for what is right, as men of One God always have, and Christ did command us to get two swords after His first coming!
I am not saying that all must join the military, but to believe as you "Christian Liberals" do, is to forget and ignore the true Word of God.
Did the Israelites fight all those others as commanded by God, or were they bad and wrong according to you, or was it a different God for that Old Testament?
Remember about all those "Facts" John, the Canadian ..............
Mk 13: 9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.
John, and all ...... This is NOT Jews and their Synagogues Christ is talking about, this is all the "good" Christians dragging their not so good Christian brothers to they "deserved" death in the End times, it is the "good and loving" Church we are talking about here, and their perceived ......... "Facts".
Does the Devil come in sheep's clothing, or not, John?
John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited
In reading through Simon's 'Dear John' entry, I thought of one profound distinguishing characteristic of Christianity.
It doesn't need the sword, nor an army to defend it.
Not only did Jesus teach:
- that we were to love our enemies and
- turn the other cheek to those who strike us and
- pray for those who persecute us and
- that he who takes up the sword will die by the sword and
- the only way to advance his kingdom was in the laying down our lives for one another
And Paul teach:
- that we fight not against flesh and blood and
- that our weapons were not those of metal but of faith, and righteousness and love and
- that we preach Christ crucified and
- that if we are to replicate his love we are both 'lambs lead to the slaughter' and
- yet more than conquerors through him who loved us
Others who have followed in Christ's footsteps have taught the same:
'Christ is disarming Peter, disarmed every soldier.' Tertullian
'We ourselves were well conversant with war and everything evil, but all of us throughout the whole wide earth have traded in our weapons of war. We have exchanged our swords for plowshares, our spears for farm tools...now we cultivate the fear of God, justice, faith and the expectation of the future given us through the crucified one...the more we are persecuted, the more do others in ever increasing numbers become believers.' Justin, martyred in 165 AD
'Daniel's prophecy of the statue that falls because its foundation is brittle (Daniel 2:41-45) - A nation that continues to spend more money on military defence than on programs of social uplift is approaching spiritual death.' Martin Luther King
’The best way to defeat the kingdom of God is to empower the church to rule the world with the sword, for then it becomes the beast it wishes to destroy.' Shane Claiborne
'For the 300 years immediately following Jesus' resurrection, the Church universally saw Christ and his teaching as non-violent. Remember that the Church taught this ethic in the face of at least three serious attempts by the state to liquidate her. If ever there was an occasion for justified retaliation and defensive slaughter, whether in the form of a just war or a just revolution, this was it...Yet the Church in the face of the heinous crimes committed against her members, insisted without reservation that when Christ disarmed Peter he disarmed all Christians.' Father George Zabelka
'Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed...This is not a way of life at all in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from a cross of iron.' Dwight D. Eisenhower, April 16, 1953
Simon is right when he says that sometimes the devil comes to us in sheep's clothing.' But even in this disguise, his tactics never change. He comes 'only to steal, kill and destroy.'
What makes our faith unique is our response to the destroyer, that rather than contend with him with weapons of metal and mass destruction 'we lay down’ as did our Master, ‘our lives for the sheep.'
Bruce Major, Project Manager at Teknor Apex Company
Great artical.
There is but one truth... Jesus.
It is not up to Christians to persuade other religions they are wrong. It is for Christians to plant seeds of truth found in God's word. It is the individual's free will of choice to receive the truth or reject it. Christians do not do the saving, God does by using Christians.
Christians are living sacrifices for His purpose. That's it. If a Monk or Buddhist rejects the truth of Jesus, then that is between them and God not between the Christian and the others.
A true Christian NEVER takes the high ground. The high ground belongs to God. A Christian is someone who KNOWS the difference.
Christianity does not have a problem. There is no problem with the truth. WE have the problem. We have issues accepting the truth because it most often is in opposition to our pride and that hurts.
To avoid the pain that the truth causes to our pride, we will create our own truth, also know as false religion.
In His Love,
Bruce
Mark LePard, Youth Pastor - New Song Christian Community
I'm surprised none has mentioned what I see as the first and greatest difference between all world religions except for biblical Christianity: Grace vs. works salvation.
This is exemplified in the abhorrent Tower of Babel. Man attempting to reach God through his works. The only way to God is for Him to do the work=grace.
William Mayor, scholar at self employed
Mark, maybe that is because several other religions emphasize grace also, we as Christians simply do not see it. Or perhaps I am wrong, are the works done to be made right with God or because one has been made right by God, and how do you tell the difference without careful study of what they are teaching? Christianity itself calls for believers to do works, but does that mean that grace is not present?
Bruce Major, Project Manager at Teknor Apex Company
Mark, William, if I may,
William>Mark, maybe that is because several other religions emphasize grace also, we as Christians simply do not see it.
Me>How can other religions offer grace without the authority of our creator God? How can other religions offer mercy without the authority of our creator God?
Grace = getting forgiveness that we do not deserve. Only the forgiveness of our one true God matters and makes us righteous in His eyes.
Mercy = not getting the punishment we do deserve. Only our one true God can forgive our offensive sins against Him.
William>Or perhaps I am wrong, are the works done to be made right with God or because one has been made right by God, and how do you tell the difference without careful study of what they are teaching?
Me>The fruit (good works) of a true Christian are the fruit of the Holy Spirit within the Christian. The difference is the motive in the heart. One is a worldly motivation to obtain something desired by ones own efforts. The other is the result of surrendering ones own efforts to the will of the indwelling Holy Spirit and bearing good fruit (what the world calls works) out of love for God.
William>Christianity itself calls for believers to do works, but does that mean that grace is not present?
Me> Christianity does not call for believers to do works. Christianity calls on believers to bear good fruit. First, surrender control willingly to the Holy Spirit, then the Spirit will guide you into doing His will. The RESULT is bearing fruit that will grow and further His Kingdom. It is not the other way around. You cannot receive the Spirit from doing works. Your heart needs to be in the right place.
Grace is always present. God's grace extends to all mankind. It is up to us to accept it. If one truly accepts the free gift of grace from God, it will require some changes in who we are, who we place our identity. Therein lays the resistance of so many people.
We want to create our own identity instead of putting our identity in Christ Jesus. We allow so many other things of this world to identify us. Maybe it's our looks, our money, our intellect, our insecurities, our pains, our past, our sufferings, other people, fame, all that are not from God. When we put our identity in Christ, we are children of God and we are transformed (sometimes parts of us right away, sometimes other parts little by little) into who He created us to be.
I hope this helps you William in understanding Christianity a bit more clearly.
In His Love,
Bruce
Mark LePard, Youth Pastor - New Song Christian Community
I disagree William. Other faiths may have glimpses of grace, or notions of it, but they are just that. Their notions fall apart in light of the whole of their doctrine. Hinduism probably comes the closest at times in statements from the Gita. But then it is very clearly contradictory in promoting a works salvation to escape Karma.
Tuesday, December 3, 2013
Thursday, November 28, 2013
Grace and Law - Part 3
from the Global Pastors Network
John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited
Given there seems to be a divide between those who still want to live the law and those delighted to be free of the law to follow Jesus to proclaim and live out his grace...
The question I'm ruminating about is:
'What would the church look like were we to live according to his grace?'
Two thoughts provoke this reflection, one from 2 Corinthians 8:9
"For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sake he became poor, so that you through his poverty might become rich."
and the other from a statement made recently by Pope Francis:
"I prefer a church which is bruised, hurting, and dirty because it has been out on the streets rather than a church which is unhealthy from being confirmed and from clinging to its own security."
I think the two complement each other - that when the church mirrors the grace of her Lord she becomes poor for the sake of people she serves and ministers to.
I think it also explains why we as Christians are so tempted to cling to the law, even though it can do no more than condemn us.
Somehow it's safer when we can say 'I am not committing adultery, I am not coveting another's property, I am obeying the Sabbath" - than to say, I am following Jesus in his fellowship with the hurting, the alienated, the imprisoned, the homeless, the guilty, the law-breakers, those caught in the sex trade, those whom the world deems as 'worthless, no-good, welfare bums - i.e. the ones Jesus refers to as 'the least of these my brethren'...
Thinking of the rich young ruler's response to Jesus 'all these (the laws of Moses) I have obeyed since I was young' and the Pharisee's prayer 'I thank God that I am not like other men' reinforces our natural (i.e. carnal) and religious response when asked to answer for our obedience to God.
But the better prayer is the publican's prayer 'Lord have mercy' - a prayer that doesn't change no matter how mature we become in the faith. If anything, judging by Paul's late in life confession that 'Christ Jesus came to die for sinners, of whom I am the worst" (note present tense of his confession!), we can't be surprised that the edict of 'sinner' remains no matter how obedient we are.
'Lord have mercy' is the prayer of someone delivered from the law, who finds mercy and grace regardless - which is ever the freedom we are meant to experience in Christ, which is to spill over from our lives to affect every sinner we meet.
Oliver John, Author of the new book, Tithing - the financial disaster of Christians? http://alphawolfpublishing.com/religion/
Hi Arthur, please note the question mark (?) on the title: Tithing - the financial disaster of Christians?
Christians will have to make that decision themselves.
Oliver John, Author of the new book, Tithing - the financial disaster of Christians? http://alphawolfpublishing.com/religion/
Thank you Samuel Patterson, for taking time to provide those verses, which can easily be used to support the tithing argument - that tithing is a burden and bondage to Christians, which should not be the case at a time of GRACE.
I am not sure why your comments did not appear on this thread. Please try and re-post it, so that others can benefit from the readings:
Acts 15:1-11,
[__ Note,some Jewish brethren stressing "the deeds of the law" as a requirement for eternal salvation regarding people who had already received Christ as their Lord and Savior...
1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren,and said, EXCEPT ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, YE CANNOT BE SAVED.
____------------------------------------------------------------
Acts 15:22-24,
22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren:------------------------------
Acts 15: 28 - 30,
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost,and to us,to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things..............................................
Galatians 5:3, "For I testify again to every man that is circumcised,that he is a debtor to do the whole law.............................
Oliver John, Author of the new book, Tithing - the financial disaster of Christians? http://alphawolfpublishing.com/religion/
The debate or discussion presents an opportunity for us to continue to learn from each other. I'm glad to be part of it. I hope other members of this group feel the same.
LOMANI UILOU, Minister of Religion (SPD) Limited
You are wrong John - the law that the "rich young ruler" mentioned was part of the 10 Commandments NOT MOSES'S LAW as you stated.
Looks like there you have mixed up Moses' Law (known as Ceremonial Law) with the Decalogue (10 Commandments). May be that's why you misunderstand some of our brothers' commends. We are talking about the 10 Commandments which you mixed it with the Ceremonial Law (the one that is finished).
LOMANI UILOU, Minister of Religion (SPD) Limited
Bruno - I would kindly say again that you have misunderstood the context of these verses.
The same Law that the apostle Paul named "the law of sin" is the same Law he named "the law of the spirit". It is the consequence of our choice to OBEY or DISOBEY THE LAW (10 COMMANDMENTS! NOT "CEREMONIAL LAW") that brings LIFE and DEATH.
If you believe (you said) "the law is not for the Christian … only for the Jews" then why don't you preach that "worshipping idols or anything else and not God" … "adultery" … "stealing" … etc… is good.
Christians should preach and live what they believe in. I wish you the best if you preach and teach that it is good to practice what stated above.
Robert Dallmann, Director at ChristLife, Inc.
I have no desire to earn righteousness through obedience to the Law... that is IMPOSSIBLE! My righteousness comes from the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
My position is that, it is not I who lives but Jesus lives through me (via the Holy Spirit, Gal. 2:20).
My problem is with the notion that Jesus living in me will lead me to be a LAW BREAKER. If Jesus lives through me and He is not going to violate the Law through me... will I (Christ in me) now lead me to break the Law? GOD FORBID!
Anyone who thinks they are being led by the Holy Spirit to violate the Law is seriously wrong.
Oliver John, Author of the new book, Tithing - the financial disaster of Christians? http://alphawolfpublishing.com/religion/
Hi LOMANI UILOU, do we therefore take it that the tithing law belongs to the ceremonial laws, hence, is no longer needed in our churches?
I ask this question because I am not a priest.
Oliver John, Author of the new book, Tithing - the financial disaster of Christians? http://alphawolfpublishing.com/religion/
This is Evangelist Samuel Patterson's post in full (as 2 separate documents):
Acts 15:1-11,
[__ Note,some Jewish brethren stressing "the deeds of the law" as a requirement for eternal salvation regarding people who had already received Christ as their Lord and Savior...
1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren,and said, EXCEPT ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, YE CANNOT BE SAVED.
____
[__ However,note Paul and Barnabas' reaction to such a notion in verse two....
2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
____
[__The matter brought before the church, and the apostles and elders in Jerusalem...
4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was NEEDFUL to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
____
[___The apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter ...
6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
____
[___ After much disputing Peter reminded them of how God saved the Gentiles by their faith in the word of the gospel without the deeds of the law
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that THROUGH THE GRACE of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
____________________
____
[___ The issue is forever settled within this bible text ... note, Then it pleased the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas ... with letters by them after this manner, saying,
Like (1) Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 5 hours ago Evangelist Samuel P. likes this
Oliver John
Oliver
Oliver John
Author of the new book, Tithing - the financial disaster of Christians? http://alphawolfpublishing.com/religion/
This is Evangelist Samuel Patterson's post in full (as 2 separate documents): contd.
Acts 15:22-24,
1. Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
1. And THEY WROTE LETTERS by them after this manner;The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.
1. Forasmuch as we have heard,that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words,subverting your souls, saying,Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law:to whom we gave no such commandment.
__________________
____
[___ Likewise, the Holy Ghost agreeing ...
Acts 15: 28 - 30,
1. For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost,and to us,to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols,and from blood,and from things strangled,and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well.Fare ye well.30 So when they were dismissed,they came to Antioch:and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle:31 Which when they had read,they rejoiced for the consolation.
_________________________
Galatians 5:3, "For I testify again to every man that is circumcised,that he is a debtor to do the whole law.4 Christ is become of no effect unto you,whosoever of you are justified by the law;ye are fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith."
By Evangelist Samuel Patterson
Simon Zelikman, at Emmanuel's Doorpost
Robert,
Your............
""Anyone who thinks they are being led by the Holy Spirit to violate the Law is seriously wrong. """
I believe it is you who is seriously wrong, you are not Christ even if you think He lives in you, and you do not live every minute of every day by the Holy Spirit, and if you say and think you do, you are mistaken, and in great need of His Atonement!
See if this His scripture helps you see the truth by His Holy Spirit, because if you say you don't sin, or that you will never sin again, then you are a ...........................
Heb 2: 7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
Heb 12: 1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
1 Cor 2: 3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
2 Cor 7: 8 For though I made you sorry with a letter, I do not repent, though I did repent: for I perceive that the same epistle hath made you sorry, though it were but for a season.
:9 Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.
:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
Eph 6: 5 Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;
:6 Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart; .............
Ph'l 2: 12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
His Grace was not cheep for Him, and it is Not cheep or automatic for us, and He does Not automatically give it to those who think, or teach, it is cheep, and I believe the Word confirms this.
John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited
Dear Lomani:
The distinctions you keep trying to introduce between ‘the law of Moses’, the ‘Decalogue’ or Ten Commandments, and ‘ceremonial law’ are not distinctions the New Testament makes. And if it did, it doesn’t negate the repeated contention by several who have contributed to this discussion that it is ‘the law’ regardless of whether ceremonial or Ten Commandments that Paul repeatedly insists that we are ‘no longer under.’
One proof of this is Romans 7:7-12
‘What shall we say then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” But sin seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting.
For apart from the law, sin was dead…but when the commandment came SIN SPRANG TO LIFE AND I DIED.
I found that the very commandment that as intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment deceived me and through the commandment put me to death…' from Romans 7:7-12
So for those who make a distinction between ceremonial, moral and 10 Commandments law, which of the 3 is Paul referring to here? The latter, the 10th of the 10 Commandments.
I can’t say it anymore emphatically than Paul does - when we try to live by the 10 Commandments sin springs to life and the commandments which were intended to ‘bring life actually bring 'death’ instead.
No wonder Paul at the end of this chapter in despair cries out: ‘What a wretched man I am! Who can rescue me from this body that is subject to death? Thanks be to God who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!…
Simon Zelikman, at Emmanuel's Doorpost
Dear John Deacon,
God's Law is never bad or death, it is flesh men who disobey that are.
When a man proudly thinks and proclaims himself so righteous and good, while standing in solidarity with a party and all promoters of abortion, Gay rights, or no weapons rights, and so many other deceptions by a certain party and ideology in todays world of deception, and all this in the name of love and supposed common good; That man is ether dead to God, or he is correct and justified by that same Law, to believe and teach as he does.
The only way we can make any kind of correct judgment of right or wrong is by the Law of God, and Christ did Not change any of the Law, because even the Law He did destroy He "rebuild", the ceremonial Law of the earthly Temple and its priesthood is now replaced and rebuild by Him in heaven, it is now His priesthood, Temple, and His Atoning Blood!
The only way we know for certain, that those men who promote abortion, and other deceptions of this world as God's truth; Or if they just chose to stand in solidarity with a party that does; The only way we know these men Dead to God; Is by God's Law, and it is because God's Law, is the only Way we know this for a Fact, which is a very, very, good thing!
There is a Great BIG difference between deception/death, and Grace/Truth by God's Law!
John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited
Dear Simon:
Huh?
Dear Lomani - part 2
You are right to express your concern that our freedom from the law not be an excuse for licentiousness - just as any American who loves her freedom would be alarmed by someone who abuses that freedom to promote hatred against minorities. Freedom comes with responsibility.
Christian freedom is first and foremost the freedom to do what is right. It comes with discipline and if that discipline is not to be 'under the law' what is it?
It is the discipline of being 'under grace' - of living a life which reflects the grace and truth of Jesus working in and through our lives - a discipline which requires more of us than the law, which is more costly, demanding not only our best but our all - heart, soul, body, mind and spirit!
But it is the love affair that makes it possible.
Had someone held marriage out to me as a series of laws I would have to obey, I would failed miserably.
But when in God's goodness a woman came into my life that literally took my breath away, marriage was no longer a series of obligations to be met, it was an all-out love affair which made the matter of faithfulness and sacrifice a slam-dunk affair. I was in love, how could I behave otherwise?
So too when Jesus found me - what had become onerous to me in trying to obey the law, suddenly became my delight.
But it was a delight not reflected in tablets of stone but in the pleasure of a Lord who transforms us not by nagging us into glory, but in the revelation of himself.
It is when we see him as he really is that we come running into his arms, determined to do everything we can to please him.
John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited
Given there seems to be a divide between those who still want to live the law and those delighted to be free of the law to follow Jesus to proclaim and live out his grace...
The question I'm ruminating about is:
'What would the church look like were we to live according to his grace?'
Two thoughts provoke this reflection, one from 2 Corinthians 8:9
"For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sake he became poor, so that you through his poverty might become rich."
and the other from a statement made recently by Pope Francis:
"I prefer a church which is bruised, hurting, and dirty because it has been out on the streets rather than a church which is unhealthy from being confirmed and from clinging to its own security."
I think the two complement each other - that when the church mirrors the grace of her Lord she becomes poor for the sake of people she serves and ministers to.
I think it also explains why we as Christians are so tempted to cling to the law, even though it can do no more than condemn us.
Somehow it's safer when we can say 'I am not committing adultery, I am not coveting another's property, I am obeying the Sabbath" - than to say, I am following Jesus in his fellowship with the hurting, the alienated, the imprisoned, the homeless, the guilty, the law-breakers, those caught in the sex trade, those whom the world deems as 'worthless, no-good, welfare bums - i.e. the ones Jesus refers to as 'the least of these my brethren'...
Thinking of the rich young ruler's response to Jesus 'all these (the laws of Moses) I have obeyed since I was young' and the Pharisee's prayer 'I thank God that I am not like other men' reinforces our natural (i.e. carnal) and religious response when asked to answer for our obedience to God.
But the better prayer is the publican's prayer 'Lord have mercy' - a prayer that doesn't change no matter how mature we become in the faith. If anything, judging by Paul's late in life confession that 'Christ Jesus came to die for sinners, of whom I am the worst" (note present tense of his confession!), we can't be surprised that the edict of 'sinner' remains no matter how obedient we are.
'Lord have mercy' is the prayer of someone delivered from the law, who finds mercy and grace regardless - which is ever the freedom we are meant to experience in Christ, which is to spill over from our lives to affect every sinner we meet.
Oliver John, Author of the new book, Tithing - the financial disaster of Christians? http://alphawolfpublishing.com/religion/
Hi Arthur, please note the question mark (?) on the title: Tithing - the financial disaster of Christians?
Christians will have to make that decision themselves.
Oliver John, Author of the new book, Tithing - the financial disaster of Christians? http://alphawolfpublishing.com/religion/
Thank you Samuel Patterson, for taking time to provide those verses, which can easily be used to support the tithing argument - that tithing is a burden and bondage to Christians, which should not be the case at a time of GRACE.
I am not sure why your comments did not appear on this thread. Please try and re-post it, so that others can benefit from the readings:
Acts 15:1-11,
[__ Note,some Jewish brethren stressing "the deeds of the law" as a requirement for eternal salvation regarding people who had already received Christ as their Lord and Savior...
1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren,and said, EXCEPT ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, YE CANNOT BE SAVED.
____------------------------------------------------------------
Acts 15:22-24,
22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren:------------------------------
Acts 15: 28 - 30,
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost,and to us,to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things..............................................
Galatians 5:3, "For I testify again to every man that is circumcised,that he is a debtor to do the whole law.............................
Oliver John, Author of the new book, Tithing - the financial disaster of Christians? http://alphawolfpublishing.com/religion/
The debate or discussion presents an opportunity for us to continue to learn from each other. I'm glad to be part of it. I hope other members of this group feel the same.
LOMANI UILOU, Minister of Religion (SPD) Limited
You are wrong John - the law that the "rich young ruler" mentioned was part of the 10 Commandments NOT MOSES'S LAW as you stated.
Looks like there you have mixed up Moses' Law (known as Ceremonial Law) with the Decalogue (10 Commandments). May be that's why you misunderstand some of our brothers' commends. We are talking about the 10 Commandments which you mixed it with the Ceremonial Law (the one that is finished).
LOMANI UILOU, Minister of Religion (SPD) Limited
Bruno - I would kindly say again that you have misunderstood the context of these verses.
The same Law that the apostle Paul named "the law of sin" is the same Law he named "the law of the spirit". It is the consequence of our choice to OBEY or DISOBEY THE LAW (10 COMMANDMENTS! NOT "CEREMONIAL LAW") that brings LIFE and DEATH.
If you believe (you said) "the law is not for the Christian … only for the Jews" then why don't you preach that "worshipping idols or anything else and not God" … "adultery" … "stealing" … etc… is good.
Christians should preach and live what they believe in. I wish you the best if you preach and teach that it is good to practice what stated above.
Robert Dallmann, Director at ChristLife, Inc.
I have no desire to earn righteousness through obedience to the Law... that is IMPOSSIBLE! My righteousness comes from the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
My position is that, it is not I who lives but Jesus lives through me (via the Holy Spirit, Gal. 2:20).
My problem is with the notion that Jesus living in me will lead me to be a LAW BREAKER. If Jesus lives through me and He is not going to violate the Law through me... will I (Christ in me) now lead me to break the Law? GOD FORBID!
Anyone who thinks they are being led by the Holy Spirit to violate the Law is seriously wrong.
Oliver John, Author of the new book, Tithing - the financial disaster of Christians? http://alphawolfpublishing.com/religion/
Hi LOMANI UILOU, do we therefore take it that the tithing law belongs to the ceremonial laws, hence, is no longer needed in our churches?
I ask this question because I am not a priest.
Oliver John, Author of the new book, Tithing - the financial disaster of Christians? http://alphawolfpublishing.com/religion/
This is Evangelist Samuel Patterson's post in full (as 2 separate documents):
Acts 15:1-11,
[__ Note,some Jewish brethren stressing "the deeds of the law" as a requirement for eternal salvation regarding people who had already received Christ as their Lord and Savior...
1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren,and said, EXCEPT ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, YE CANNOT BE SAVED.
____
[__ However,note Paul and Barnabas' reaction to such a notion in verse two....
2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
____
[__The matter brought before the church, and the apostles and elders in Jerusalem...
4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was NEEDFUL to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
____
[___The apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter ...
6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
____
[___ After much disputing Peter reminded them of how God saved the Gentiles by their faith in the word of the gospel without the deeds of the law
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that THROUGH THE GRACE of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
____________________
____
[___ The issue is forever settled within this bible text ... note, Then it pleased the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas ... with letters by them after this manner, saying,
Like (1) Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 5 hours ago Evangelist Samuel P. likes this
Oliver John
Oliver
Oliver John
Author of the new book, Tithing - the financial disaster of Christians? http://alphawolfpublishing.com/religion/
This is Evangelist Samuel Patterson's post in full (as 2 separate documents): contd.
Acts 15:22-24,
1. Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
1. And THEY WROTE LETTERS by them after this manner;The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.
1. Forasmuch as we have heard,that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words,subverting your souls, saying,Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law:to whom we gave no such commandment.
__________________
____
[___ Likewise, the Holy Ghost agreeing ...
Acts 15: 28 - 30,
1. For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost,and to us,to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols,and from blood,and from things strangled,and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well.Fare ye well.30 So when they were dismissed,they came to Antioch:and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle:31 Which when they had read,they rejoiced for the consolation.
_________________________
Galatians 5:3, "For I testify again to every man that is circumcised,that he is a debtor to do the whole law.4 Christ is become of no effect unto you,whosoever of you are justified by the law;ye are fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith."
By Evangelist Samuel Patterson
Simon Zelikman, at Emmanuel's Doorpost
Robert,
Your............
""Anyone who thinks they are being led by the Holy Spirit to violate the Law is seriously wrong. """
I believe it is you who is seriously wrong, you are not Christ even if you think He lives in you, and you do not live every minute of every day by the Holy Spirit, and if you say and think you do, you are mistaken, and in great need of His Atonement!
See if this His scripture helps you see the truth by His Holy Spirit, because if you say you don't sin, or that you will never sin again, then you are a ...........................
Heb 2: 7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
Heb 12: 1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
1 Cor 2: 3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
2 Cor 7: 8 For though I made you sorry with a letter, I do not repent, though I did repent: for I perceive that the same epistle hath made you sorry, though it were but for a season.
:9 Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.
:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
Eph 6: 5 Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;
:6 Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart; .............
Ph'l 2: 12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
His Grace was not cheep for Him, and it is Not cheep or automatic for us, and He does Not automatically give it to those who think, or teach, it is cheep, and I believe the Word confirms this.
John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited
Dear Lomani:
The distinctions you keep trying to introduce between ‘the law of Moses’, the ‘Decalogue’ or Ten Commandments, and ‘ceremonial law’ are not distinctions the New Testament makes. And if it did, it doesn’t negate the repeated contention by several who have contributed to this discussion that it is ‘the law’ regardless of whether ceremonial or Ten Commandments that Paul repeatedly insists that we are ‘no longer under.’
One proof of this is Romans 7:7-12
‘What shall we say then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” But sin seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting.
For apart from the law, sin was dead…but when the commandment came SIN SPRANG TO LIFE AND I DIED.
I found that the very commandment that as intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment deceived me and through the commandment put me to death…' from Romans 7:7-12
So for those who make a distinction between ceremonial, moral and 10 Commandments law, which of the 3 is Paul referring to here? The latter, the 10th of the 10 Commandments.
I can’t say it anymore emphatically than Paul does - when we try to live by the 10 Commandments sin springs to life and the commandments which were intended to ‘bring life actually bring 'death’ instead.
No wonder Paul at the end of this chapter in despair cries out: ‘What a wretched man I am! Who can rescue me from this body that is subject to death? Thanks be to God who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!…
Simon Zelikman, at Emmanuel's Doorpost
Dear John Deacon,
God's Law is never bad or death, it is flesh men who disobey that are.
When a man proudly thinks and proclaims himself so righteous and good, while standing in solidarity with a party and all promoters of abortion, Gay rights, or no weapons rights, and so many other deceptions by a certain party and ideology in todays world of deception, and all this in the name of love and supposed common good; That man is ether dead to God, or he is correct and justified by that same Law, to believe and teach as he does.
The only way we can make any kind of correct judgment of right or wrong is by the Law of God, and Christ did Not change any of the Law, because even the Law He did destroy He "rebuild", the ceremonial Law of the earthly Temple and its priesthood is now replaced and rebuild by Him in heaven, it is now His priesthood, Temple, and His Atoning Blood!
The only way we know for certain, that those men who promote abortion, and other deceptions of this world as God's truth; Or if they just chose to stand in solidarity with a party that does; The only way we know these men Dead to God; Is by God's Law, and it is because God's Law, is the only Way we know this for a Fact, which is a very, very, good thing!
There is a Great BIG difference between deception/death, and Grace/Truth by God's Law!
John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited
Dear Simon:
Huh?
Dear Lomani - part 2
You are right to express your concern that our freedom from the law not be an excuse for licentiousness - just as any American who loves her freedom would be alarmed by someone who abuses that freedom to promote hatred against minorities. Freedom comes with responsibility.
Christian freedom is first and foremost the freedom to do what is right. It comes with discipline and if that discipline is not to be 'under the law' what is it?
It is the discipline of being 'under grace' - of living a life which reflects the grace and truth of Jesus working in and through our lives - a discipline which requires more of us than the law, which is more costly, demanding not only our best but our all - heart, soul, body, mind and spirit!
But it is the love affair that makes it possible.
Had someone held marriage out to me as a series of laws I would have to obey, I would failed miserably.
But when in God's goodness a woman came into my life that literally took my breath away, marriage was no longer a series of obligations to be met, it was an all-out love affair which made the matter of faithfulness and sacrifice a slam-dunk affair. I was in love, how could I behave otherwise?
So too when Jesus found me - what had become onerous to me in trying to obey the law, suddenly became my delight.
But it was a delight not reflected in tablets of stone but in the pleasure of a Lord who transforms us not by nagging us into glory, but in the revelation of himself.
It is when we see him as he really is that we come running into his arms, determined to do everything we can to please him.
Monday, November 25, 2013
When a church begins to count
Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen. And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister.
1 John 4:20,21
Ten years ago I was part of an energized group starting a new church in North Markham.
My responsibility was to lead 'Branch Out', a church venture to ensure we didn't get stuck in the pews.
Yesterday I was asked to give a brief retrospective of 'Branch Out' which may be of help to anyone looking to see their church more involved in the surrounding community. It works from the premise that a church doesn't really begin to count until the community around it is impacted by 'the love.'
The photo you’re looking at here is of The Friendship Centre, a drop-in for people living in the Dundas and Sherbourne area. It attracts all sorts of people - homeless people, women in the sex trade, people struggling with addiction or mental health issues and people who are frustrated at not being able to get a job.
The Toronto City Council in its efforts to stop the gravy train and cut the fat from government expenditures decided to close the Friendship Centre.
But the people for whom the Centre was home protested - so vehemently - that the City hosted a meeting in the nearby church sanctuary where over 250 people crammed in. It was amazing.
One of those who stood up to speak was a woman in her early 30’s who said that she had been a model for Vogue magazine when she got hooked on street drugs. In her words, ‘were it not for the Friendship Centre, I’d be dead by now.’
As the result of their protest, the City reversed its decision, provided additional funding and partnered with an agency called the Good Neighbours Club to keep the place going.
Branch Out began with the desire to so impact the surrounding neighbourhood that if for any reason our church had to close its doors, the surrounding community would protest so vehemently that they'd do anything to keep us going. Like the Friendship Centre.
The challenge for us in those early years was: we were not really a community based church.
Many who were attending Sunday services lived and worked miles outside the immediate neighbourhood. The people we were attending church with on Sunday were not the people we were spending the rest of the week with.
So the question became: “How could we impact the community surrounding the church if most of us are only here on Sunday?”
We came to the conclusion that if we can’t bring the neighbourhood into the church, then we would have to bring the church into the neighbourhood - specifically into the neighbourhoods where we spend the majority of our time. We had to become like a Friendship Centre on wheels.
Which immediately catapulted our catchment area from North Markham to the GTA.
And we went crazy. Goodness ran wild. Branch Out became compassion on steroids - endeavouring to say yes to everything that was asked of us...
Some went to Participation House to lead worship services there.
Some went to Pathways for Youth to connect with at risk youth in Richmond Hill and Markham.
Some went to Sanctuary to work with the homeless in the area south of Bloor and Yonge.
Some prepared and served meals to refugees at Matthew House, while others brought live music which had everybody dancing.
Some invited some of those refugees into their homes expanding who they now consider as family.
Farmer Mike Widdimore donated hundreds of pumpkins with the proceeds from their sale going to the Food Banks in Markham and Stouffville.
Hundreds of bags of good clothing were collected and distributed to women’s shelters and homeless shelters and inner city churches and missions.
Desserts were being served to over 400 homeless people in an old church near Allen Gardens. And they were sung to.
Worship services for the elderly at Unionvilla and for homeless people at the Scott Mission
TOB youth befriending street people downtown
used bikes being sent to Malawi
donated cars going to poor families through Wheels for Humanity
home cooked meals being delivered to people recently hospitalized and others driving people to doctors’ appointments
appeals being written to various levels of government for affordable housing and increases to minimum wage
And 10% of the church’s income was being re-directed to assist individuals and families in need, as well as to agencies like World Vision and Emmanuel International and local social agencies like the York Region Abuse Centre and Ronald McDonald House.
All these and much more were being done by so many, too many to name - all with the intent of making this church a Friendship Centre in every neighbourhood we could - it was amazing.
Then we entered our park bench phase.
The phase when we moved from steroids to whole wheat, from quick fixes and incidental encounters to really taking the time to work with those in need.
David Chalmers and Owen Alton have been instrumental in this transition.
We got involved with agencies like Light Patrol, Teen Challenge, Young Life, Hands Across the Nations and other agencies that would allow for frontline involvement and relationship building, working with people to help them move from dependence to self-reliance.
It really was a park bench approach - Owen, Ian and others sitting with people taking the time to fully appraise their situation and then saying: ‘now let’s see together how God is going to resolve this!'
We started working with other churches to provide co-ordinated assistance to communities like Kin Village. This process in helping people get back on their feet proved to be so effective that Restore Canada was born…
So where do we go from here?
As far as we want to. Whatever it takes to get the surrounding community to beat down our doors were we ever to think of closing this place.
To close on an entirely personal note - there are four images I have when I think of Branch Out.
One is of Barb Dawson providing foot care to homeless people in the Regent Park area.
Another is of Andy Philip doing his magic routine to spell-bound audiences at Matthew House and Ronald McDonald House.
Another is of Judy Hazlett and Cynthia leading a conga line of Participation House residents in their wheelchairs to dance.
The last is of Hercules Pilatos and Billy O’Sullivan, one Greek and the other Irish and whatever else Billy is.
One was in a desperate housing situation downtown, the other in a precarious living situation near Markville Mall.
Both had known great success in their respective careers.
Both had experienced severe turns in their lives that had them truly wondering if they’d ever survive.
Both understand whatever money they have in their wallet is only theirs until they meet someone who needs it more.
Both came to our attention through members of this church - Hercules via Jyoti and Billy through Matt and Blaise.
Both of them thank God for us and we thank God for them.
They met for the first time several months ago at a service we do at All Saints once a month. And after a heart to heart conversation, Billy’s wallet was a little lighter.
This is what Branch Out is about.
Friendship and help - among people who’d otherwise never meet.
Where individuals and communities are helped and God is praised.
1 John 4:20,21
Ten years ago I was part of an energized group starting a new church in North Markham.
My responsibility was to lead 'Branch Out', a church venture to ensure we didn't get stuck in the pews.
Yesterday I was asked to give a brief retrospective of 'Branch Out' which may be of help to anyone looking to see their church more involved in the surrounding community. It works from the premise that a church doesn't really begin to count until the community around it is impacted by 'the love.'
 |
| Friendship Centre - east of Sherbourne on Dundas |
The Toronto City Council in its efforts to stop the gravy train and cut the fat from government expenditures decided to close the Friendship Centre.
But the people for whom the Centre was home protested - so vehemently - that the City hosted a meeting in the nearby church sanctuary where over 250 people crammed in. It was amazing.
One of those who stood up to speak was a woman in her early 30’s who said that she had been a model for Vogue magazine when she got hooked on street drugs. In her words, ‘were it not for the Friendship Centre, I’d be dead by now.’
As the result of their protest, the City reversed its decision, provided additional funding and partnered with an agency called the Good Neighbours Club to keep the place going.
Branch Out began with the desire to so impact the surrounding neighbourhood that if for any reason our church had to close its doors, the surrounding community would protest so vehemently that they'd do anything to keep us going. Like the Friendship Centre.
The challenge for us in those early years was: we were not really a community based church.
Many who were attending Sunday services lived and worked miles outside the immediate neighbourhood. The people we were attending church with on Sunday were not the people we were spending the rest of the week with.
So the question became: “How could we impact the community surrounding the church if most of us are only here on Sunday?”
We came to the conclusion that if we can’t bring the neighbourhood into the church, then we would have to bring the church into the neighbourhood - specifically into the neighbourhoods where we spend the majority of our time. We had to become like a Friendship Centre on wheels.
Which immediately catapulted our catchment area from North Markham to the GTA.
And we went crazy. Goodness ran wild. Branch Out became compassion on steroids - endeavouring to say yes to everything that was asked of us...
Some went to Participation House to lead worship services there.
Some went to Pathways for Youth to connect with at risk youth in Richmond Hill and Markham.
Some went to Sanctuary to work with the homeless in the area south of Bloor and Yonge.
Some prepared and served meals to refugees at Matthew House, while others brought live music which had everybody dancing.
Some invited some of those refugees into their homes expanding who they now consider as family.
Farmer Mike Widdimore donated hundreds of pumpkins with the proceeds from their sale going to the Food Banks in Markham and Stouffville.
Hundreds of bags of good clothing were collected and distributed to women’s shelters and homeless shelters and inner city churches and missions.
Desserts were being served to over 400 homeless people in an old church near Allen Gardens. And they were sung to.
Worship services for the elderly at Unionvilla and for homeless people at the Scott Mission
TOB youth befriending street people downtown
used bikes being sent to Malawi
donated cars going to poor families through Wheels for Humanity
home cooked meals being delivered to people recently hospitalized and others driving people to doctors’ appointments
appeals being written to various levels of government for affordable housing and increases to minimum wage
And 10% of the church’s income was being re-directed to assist individuals and families in need, as well as to agencies like World Vision and Emmanuel International and local social agencies like the York Region Abuse Centre and Ronald McDonald House.
All these and much more were being done by so many, too many to name - all with the intent of making this church a Friendship Centre in every neighbourhood we could - it was amazing.
Then we entered our park bench phase.
The phase when we moved from steroids to whole wheat, from quick fixes and incidental encounters to really taking the time to work with those in need.
David Chalmers and Owen Alton have been instrumental in this transition.
We got involved with agencies like Light Patrol, Teen Challenge, Young Life, Hands Across the Nations and other agencies that would allow for frontline involvement and relationship building, working with people to help them move from dependence to self-reliance.
It really was a park bench approach - Owen, Ian and others sitting with people taking the time to fully appraise their situation and then saying: ‘now let’s see together how God is going to resolve this!'
We started working with other churches to provide co-ordinated assistance to communities like Kin Village. This process in helping people get back on their feet proved to be so effective that Restore Canada was born…
So where do we go from here?
As far as we want to. Whatever it takes to get the surrounding community to beat down our doors were we ever to think of closing this place.
To close on an entirely personal note - there are four images I have when I think of Branch Out.
One is of Barb Dawson providing foot care to homeless people in the Regent Park area.
Another is of Andy Philip doing his magic routine to spell-bound audiences at Matthew House and Ronald McDonald House.
Another is of Judy Hazlett and Cynthia leading a conga line of Participation House residents in their wheelchairs to dance.
 |
| Billy O'Sullivan and Hercules Pilatos |
One was in a desperate housing situation downtown, the other in a precarious living situation near Markville Mall.
Both had known great success in their respective careers.
Both had experienced severe turns in their lives that had them truly wondering if they’d ever survive.
Both understand whatever money they have in their wallet is only theirs until they meet someone who needs it more.
Both came to our attention through members of this church - Hercules via Jyoti and Billy through Matt and Blaise.
Both of them thank God for us and we thank God for them.
They met for the first time several months ago at a service we do at All Saints once a month. And after a heart to heart conversation, Billy’s wallet was a little lighter.
This is what Branch Out is about.
Friendship and help - among people who’d otherwise never meet.
Where individuals and communities are helped and God is praised.
Thursday, November 21, 2013
Law and Grace - Part 2
From the Global Pastors Network
Question posed by Michael Nimz, Anabaptist Outreach Worker
What does grace mean to you? Once we have grace, what place does the law hold in our lives and in our churches? - continued...
LOMANI UILOU, Minister of Religion (SPD) Limited
We are only contempt and kill by the law because of NOT OBEYING THE LAW - For those who obey God's law they are not contempt, and this will apparently and finally be on the day of JUDGEMENT. Romans 1:18 "For the wrath of God is revealed … against ALL UNGODLINESS AND WICKEDNESS OF MEN WHO BY THEIR WICKEDNESS SUBRESS THE TRUTH". 2:6-13 "For He will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who DOES EVIL … but glory and honour and peace for every one who DOES GOOD … For God shows no partiality. ALL WHO HAVE SINNED WITHOUT THE LAW WILL ALSO BE PERISH WITHOUT THE LAW, AND ALL WHO HAVE SINNED UNDER THE LAW WILL BE JUDGED BY THE LAW…
… FOR IT IS NOT THE HEARERS OF THE LAW WHO ARE RIGHTEOUS BEFORE GOD, BUT THE DOERS OF THE LAW WHO ARE JUSTIFIED"
Looks like Paul is contradicting himself and his writings! NO! HE IS NOT! Some just don't understand his writing - especially miss the context.
Romans 7 is one of my favourite passages. How could you skip earlier verses: 1 - 3 "The law has dominion over a man as long as he lives" - While we are alive we are obliged to obey the law. For one reason: NOT TO SAVE US but because we are obliged to and we will be judge (on JUDGEMENT DAY base on this law = 10 Commandments).
What does it mean "dead to the law through the body of Christ" - it does not mean that the law is finished. It means "COMMITMENT TO OBEY THE LAW NO MATTER WHAT THE COST" - that is why the same author says in Romans 12:1 "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that YOU OFFER YOUR BODIES A LIVING SACRIFICE, HOLY, ACCEPTABLE TO GOD, which is your reasonable service."
However, we seem to focus on Paul's writing and have ignored the Gospels and the other epistles. 1 John 1:8-9 "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
What do we have to CONFESS if there is no sin, which means no breaking of the law? 2:4 "He who says 'I know him' but DISOBEYS HIS COMMANDMENTS IS A LIAR, and the TRUTH IS NOT IN HIM."
It is important that we take into account and consideration all passages where LAW (10 COMMANDMENTS) and GRACE is mentioned so that we won't have the entire Scripture contradicting itself. May I suggest, if Paul's writing is not understood just focus on Jesus' entire teachings, it is very simple to understand. Above all, we have salvation only from Jesus and not any other. Stick with Jesus because misunderstanding of Paul's writing could be a painful consequent; worse of all is one teaches the wrong message - one would be responsible for the other person's blood (being taught with the wrong message).
Mbuye Otiti, Advocacy Minister at Visionary Believers in Christ Network International
Grace is the Divine Provision from God's Throne of Mercy and Truth Which is in Christ Jesus the Word Lord; by Which Jesus separates man from his Sin, its works and life; as He enjoins him/her unto Himself to Partake together with them, of His Divine Works of Grace and Truth to make them Become the sons of God according to John 1:-10-14, Romans 8:1-19. The Law is Spiritual; and It is Ordained of God in His Divine Grace; to make man realize and see his Sin in him; and then turn to Christ Jesus the Lamb; and identify with Him according to His Redemptive Works which He accomplished in Him on His Cross before the world was; which He Manifested Israel when He Came and Became Flesh.
John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited
Lomani:
I love it when my best defence is provided by my opponent. Your reference to Romans 7:1-3 is the perfect summary of what I am trying to say.
"Now, dear brothers and sisters—you who are familiar with the law—don’t you know that the law applies only while a person is living? For example, when a woman marries, the law binds her to her husband as long as he is alive. But if he dies, the laws of marriage no longer apply to her. So while her husband is alive, she would be committing adultery if she married another man. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law and does not commit adultery when she remarries.
So, my dear brothers and sisters, this is the point: You died to the power of the law when you died with Christ. And now you are united with the one who was raised from the dead. As a result, we can produce a harvest of good deeds for God." Romans 7:1-4 NLT
Taking exactly what those verses say - before Christ, I was married to the law. I was bound to it for as long as I was alive. But with Christ, I died to the law when I died in Christ.
And now that I am dead to the law, who am I now married to?
I am married to the one who was raised from the dead and as a result, I can - in the community of others who are also married to Christ - produce a harvest of good deeds for God.
Put another way - when I wake up each day, from whom do I receive my marching orders? From the law of Moses or from the Spirit of Christ? Obviously the latter.
So what purpose has the Law? The law is for the lawless.
It is also an added measure that calls me to account if in my claim to be following Christ I am doing less than loving my neighbour.
If I claim to obey Christ and am unfaithful to my wife, then I am breach of the commandment about adultery. But before committing adultery as the law of Moses framed it, I would have been in breach of Christ's command of having looked at another woman with lust in my heart.
In short, if I am living in disobedience to 'the law of life in the Spirit', Christ himself will be the first to oppose me in advance of the Law. It is the breach in the experience of his love for me that will be the first sign of my disobedience. My experience of being cut off from his love will do more to bring me 'into line' than the law ever could. Hence the law came with Moses BUT grace and truth came with Jesus Christ. I rely solely on the latter. And if obedient to Christ, I fulfill the former.
"May the words of my mouth
and the meditation of my heart
be pleasing to you,
O Lord, my rock and my redeemer." Psalm 19:14
When we love Jesus and seek to be obedient to him daily, we begin to experience his pleasure, 'to taste and see that the Lord is good.'
It is only in that experience - in community with others - that we grow in both love and obedience. The Law is incapable of producing either love or obedience. How can it? It is only a schoolmaster whose one eternal lesson is 'all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.' Thus the Law leads us to Christ. Once with Christ, we need no other, we obey no other and we are only answerable to him, not only on the Last Day but daily in fellowship with those who walk with him.
Robert Dallmann, Director at ChristLife, Inc.
1 John 3:4 - "...for sin is the transgression of the law."
Romans 6:15 - "What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? GOD FORBID."
John Swain, Volunteer Worker at Bethany Community Church Harpenden
No wonder the church is in the state it's in when we have ministers of religion, and christian directors plucking verses out which are out of context, and which are being presented through their personal legalistic filter. It is wrong to handle scripture by promoting doctrine from selected, isolated verses. Scripture must be seen as a whole, with scripture interpreting itself. Take the above comments from Robert Dallmann as an example. Is Paul in Romans 6:15 promoting law keeping as Mr Dallmann seems to be implying. NO. Not if you read it in context and as a whole with other NT teaching. He is saying that it would seem that grace gives licence to do anything we want to because we are no longer under the law. God forbid, says Paul. The law makes sin come alive, the strength of sin is the law, we are dead to sin and alive to Christ, therefore we ought to be displaying Christ like life, not sin. What should be coming out of our lives is the fruit that the Spirit within us produces, which is summed up in Jesus' commandment, which supersedes all the OT commandments which is to Love God and others as Christ has loved us. !
1 John 3:4 is correct. Sin is a transgression of the law. But read the context. We are dead to sin. Jesus came to take away sin. As believers we have had sin taken away, therefore the law has no hold over us or power to condemn. We are the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus, we are sons of God. Marvel at the love God has bestowed on us, that we are the sons of God, righteous before God and whatever we do, nothing can separate us from this love and our position in Him. Our quickened spirits are sinless, our soul's desire is to fall in line with our spirit, and, like Paul, we discipline our body to come in line with our soul and spirit. We don't let the sin nature in our bodies take control, but as 1 John 3:3 says we purify ourselves.
To teach that we have been saved and given the Holy Spirit just so that we can try to keep the law better is a poor second rate gospel as far as I am concerned, and is not what I read in the scripture.
Before Moses God did not impute men's sins to them, during the time of the law and the prophets God did impute men's sins to them, now those who are in Christ do not have their sins imputed to them. We are dead to sin, therefore dead to the law, we are alive in Christ therefore we are righteous, in right standing before a Holy God.
Robert Dallmann, Director at ChristLife, Inc.
I always love it when I quote the Bible, with NO COMMENTARY... and someone says...
IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT!
So John Swain, you advocate allowing Christians to sin?
Here is another one for you to REJECT...
______
The Apostle Paul said...
Acts 24:14 - (AMP) - "But this I confess to you, however, that in accordance with the Way [of the Lord], which they call a [heretical, division-producing] sect, I worship (serve) the God of our fathers, STILL PERSUADED OF THE TRUTH OF AND BELIEVING IN AND PLACING FULL CONFIDENCE IN EVERYTHING LAID DOWN IN THE LAW [OF MOSES] OR WRITTEN IN THE PROPHETS;"
Of course, the Apostle Paul agrees with Jesus, Who said...
Matthew 5:18 - "For verily I say unto you, TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS, ONE JOT OR ONE TITTLE SHALL IN NO WISE PASS from the law, TILL ALL BE FULFILLED."
Last time I checked, heaven and earth were still here, so according to Jesus NONE of the Law has passed away.
Anthony Verderame, Speaker ♦ Counselor ♦ Mind Coach ♦ Helping individuals & churches experience lives that thrive!
My heart breaks for His Body when I read threads like this. Living/walking in love IS living/walking BY HIS LIFE!
Charles King, Management Consultant & Christian Minister
Does anyone but me see a direct relationship to the following verses?
Deu 7:9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;
Deu 10:12 And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul,
Jos 1:7 Only be thou strong and very courageous, that thou mayest observe to do according to all the law, which Moses my servant commanded thee: turn not from it to the right hand or to the left, that thou mayest prosper whithersoever thou goest.
Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
Jhn 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
It appears Jesus is saying the same thing that the Old Testament writers were saying!
1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Based on 1 John 2:4 taken out of context, there may be a lot of liars!
Robert Dallmann, Director at ChristLife, Inc.
AMEN Charles...
Hebrews 7:12 - "For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law."
There HAS been a change in the Law. The change in the Law has to do with motivation and enablement!
OT Motivation - to earn something from God, salvation, favor, blessings, etc.
NT Motivation - LOVE for God and His people
OT Ability - SELF - it was impossible to obey
NT Ability - CHRIST IN US - it is possible to obey
____________
Galatians 2:20 - "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but CHRIST LIVETH IN ME: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."
So the question is a simple one...
Jesus lives in and through me, is Jesus a LAW BREAKER?
Is it conceivable that Jesus after the resurrection now allows for violating the Law?
John Swain, Volunteer Worker at Bethany Community Church Harpenden
Robert Dallmann:-
I think you read my threads like you must read the Bible. I have not and never will advocate sin. Neither can you justify keeping the law in this age of grace. It is not a case of motivation and ability. It is a case that we now stand in a totally different relationship with God than anyone ever did in the OT. No one in the OT was born of the Spirit. We are. You need to stop using OT law scriptures to justify NT law keeping. If you read my last thread carefully you will see that I advocate righteousness and purity not sin. If you have got to keep the law to please God you have misunderstood who you are in God and the utterly fantastic relationship he has bought us into, through Jesus' sacrificial death and resurrection.
Robert Dallmann, Director at ChristLife, Inc.
John Swain,
You said quote: "If you read my last thread carefully you will see that I advocate righteousness and purity not sin."
My response: Since you seem to have a problem with the Bible's definition. How do you define "sin"?
I like the Bible definition myself!
1 John 3:4 - "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."
Robert Dallmann, Director at ChristLife, Inc.
John Swain said quote: "It is not a case of motivation and ability."
My response: Do you really believe that Jesus living in and through you by the Holy Spirit does NOT change your ability to obey? Really?
_____
Romans 6:15 - "What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid."
John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited
John Swain:
I find your entries inspiring. As one who for years struggled, as did Martin Luther, with trying to live by the law, I was an abysmal failure at it. I had come to Christ but had found in trying to obey the law that I was bond to a servitude which had me persuaded that to be a Christian was anything but free.
My route to finding freedom in Christ was a sequitous one helped in large part by reading Martin Luther's 'Introduction to Galatians' - where among other things, he introduces that incredible scriptural phrase: 'the just shall live by faith.'
It hit me as it had him. I was seeking to be just by obeying the law rather than accepting that I am justified: by faith in Jesus Christ. To quote the great Charles Wesley line 'my chains fell off, my heart set free, I rose, went forth and followed Thee.' In following Jesus I am free, I am free, I am free! Utmost in that freedom, was the freedom to obey Him in a way I never could while trying to obey the law.
The irony of grace, of living by the Spirit rather than by the letter of the law - is that even though I am held to a higher standard than the 10 Commandments; and to the more disciplined walk of 'sharing in his sufferings and in the power of his resurrection', I have truly discovered the way of Christ is freedom, whereas to live by the law was death.
Robert and Charles are right in the sense that the law remains 'until heaven and earth pass away' but what they forget - and I can so easily forget - is that our relationship to the law changed the moment we died in Christ.
We were once married to the law, but thank God in Christ we were baptized into his death and raised to newness of life, where we are no longer married to the law, but joined to Christ himself.
In being Christ's, we are now called to greater things than the law could have ever taken us. In a word these greater things are to love our neighbour as Christ loves our neighbour, and to rejoice in the liberty of being sons and daughters of the most High - solely on account of his grace.
Robert Dallmann, Director at ChristLife, Inc.
Hi John Deacon,
You said quote: "Robert and Charles are right in the sense that the law remains 'until heaven and earth pass away' but what they forget - and I can so easily forget - is that our relationship to the law changed the moment we died in Christ."
My response: I did not forget this fact, I actually quoted the verse a few posts ago. Here is my post from above...
"Hebrews 7:12 - "For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law."
There HAS been a change in the Law. The change in the Law has to do with motivation and enablement!
OT Motivation - to earn something from God, salvation, favor, blessings, etc.
NT Motivation - LOVE for God and His people
OT Ability - SELF - it was impossible to obey
NT Ability - CHRIST IN US - it is possible to obey"
________________
I agree that we are called to greater things than the Law, and this is where the motivation and empowering comes into play.
OT Law says don't murder...
NT Grace says don't even be unjustly angry...
OT Law says don't commit adultery...
NT Grace says don't even look at a woman with lust...
Grace has higher requirements than the Law!
Rev Peter Sekyi, Founder/Senior Pastor at Word Foundation Centre International Ministry
Hi Robert,
Do you remember that Paul said this in defence of the accusation by his
fellow Jews that he was preaching things that were not in line with Jewish
beliefs? So the apostle as a natural descendant of Benjamin told the court
he had followed everything the required of him as a Jew. That he believed
in the law as much as they did. If you would recollect there was another
occasion when he had gone to Jerusalem with some fellow believers and for
the sake of the Pharisees and Scribes some of the believers in Christ
including Paul had to go through purification to please the Jews. Acts
21:15-28; Acts 15:1-29
Again, Jesus spoke to the Jews who had a hard time believing in him as the
Messiah. Their rejection of Jesus meant there strict adherence to the law
and the prophets though that could not save any of them. So in effect,
Jesus said to them if you guys had rejected me for the law then know that
every law would have to be fulfilled. The prophetic significance of the
five books of Moses that had not been fulfilled yet would be and what
remains had all been fulfilled by Jesus Christ. By implication, Jesus said
to them whoever lives by the law shall be judged by the law nothing shall
be overlooked. Take a serious note of the following: Romans 3:19-20, 21-31
then let me know the basis on which both Noah and Abraham were justified
since they lived before the law.
Bless you my brother.
Rev Peter Sekyi
John Swain, Volunteer Worker at Bethany Community Church Harpenden
Robert Dullmann.
Let me ask you a question. Do you keep all the law. Have you ever looked on a woman and had lust in your heart? because if you have kept all the law to that level since becoming a Christian you are an exceptional man. If not then you are condemned by the law.
The law continues until heaven and earth pass away, but not for righteous men.(1Tim1:9)
I have died with Christ and been raised in newness of life, I have not been raised to the old life of trying to fulfill the law. Read Hebrews. Jesus did not come from the levitical tribe. He was not a priest of the Old Law. He was of the line of Melek Tzedek (King of Righteousnes) He bought a different sacrifice that instituted a different law, the law of Loving as Christ has loved us. As I said it is not about motivation and ability. Its about condemnation under the old law and No condemnation under the new one. The OT law was to show you that you could never, ever, ever be good enough The OT law made sin come alive in us and bring its consequence which is death. NT shows that Jesus Christ has fulfilled the righteous requirements of the law, we have died to sin, and Jesus is now able to impute his righteousness to us.
1 Tim 1:5 shows that the end of the command ( the word end used here in the Greek means the conclusion of an act or state) is charity (the word for charity used here is agape) Love, out of a pure heart and a good conscience and of un-hypocritical faith. That's what true grace brings. Not a licence to sin, but a desire, out of a pure heart, to live Holy as He is Holy.
Now read 1Tim 1:6-7 and tell me whether you come into that category or not. If you are teaching that we need to keep the law , after we have been saved in order for God righteousness to be imparted to us, then I believe you do come into that category.
I say these things with a strong conviction that I am dividing God's word correctly, because I have seen Christians who have tried to live according to the law feel inadequate and condemned. However, when they have understood the truth of who they are and what they have in Christ they become empowered to boldly share their faith, they have confidence in God and his word, their desire to sin falls away and they move into new levels of operating in the Spirits gifting. Romans 8 truely becomes a reality for them.
Robert Dallmann, Director at ChristLife, Inc.
Hi Rev Peter Sekyi
You said quote: "Do you remember that Paul said this in defence of the accusation by his
fellow Jews that he was preaching things that were not in line with Jewish
beliefs?"
My response: So you are saying the Paul was lying to save his skin?
Why did Paul quote the Law of Moses to the Gentile believers in Corinth in 1 Corinthians 9:8-9?
1 Corinthians 9:8-9 - "Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also? (9) For it is written in the LAW OF MOSES, thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
Seems odd that Paul would be teaching a useless Law of Moses to primarily Gentile believers.
____________
As for Jesus, in just one chapter before, He quoted the OT to satan in self defense against His temptations in the wilderness. Jesus said...
Matthew 4:4 - "But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, BUT BY EVERY WORD that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."
____________
For me, I am sticking with Jesus... He said we should LIVE BY EVERY WORD from God, and that works for me.
LOMANI UILOU, Minister of Religion (SPD) Limited
Brothers in Christ - we don't keep the law in order to come to Christ (Bible says: "The law" (10 Commandments! Not the ceremonial law) "points us to Christ". We Come to Christ and through the power of and from Christ, we are enabled to obey the law. One last thing I like to remind us is: the ceremonial law (which includes all rituals in the sanctuary were only shadows, they were pointing forward to Jesus - these are the laws that were vanished and done away with) is not the same as the decalogue, 10 Commandments, - which does not change, not finished (Jesus said: "I did not come to abolish"), it "is good … holy … righteous … perfect … and stands forever." Why would one hate, don't like, reject, and get rid of something so "good … righteous … perfect … and holy". One could only have to be mad to do such thing. Apparently, the 10 Commandments has Godly qualities and I believe they are qualities that God likes us to have.
Robert Dallmann, Director at ChristLife, Inc.
Hi John Swain,
You said quote: "Robert Dullmann"
My response: Nice abuse of my last name. However, I am not the "dull" one here. I quote the Word of God and you do mental gymnastics to discredit what it clearly says.
______________
You said quote: "Let me ask you a question. Do you keep all the law. Have you ever looked on a woman and had lust in your heart? because if you have kept all the law to that level since becoming a Christian you are an exceptional man. If not then you are condemned by the law."
My response: You should ACTUALLY READ what I have posted (TWICE now) about the "change" in the Law. Please scroll up and find my post.
______________
You said quote: "The law continues until heaven and earth pass away, but not for righteous men.(1Tim1:9)"
My response: I agree. Paul says it this way in Galatians...
Galatians 5:18 - "But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law."
Does God allow you to VIOLATE His holy, just, and good Law at those times when you are NOT led by the Spirit?
Or would you have us to believe that you are ALWAYS led by the Spirit?
______________
You said quote: "I have died with Christ and been raised in newness of life, I have not been raised to the old life of trying to fulfill the law."
My response: AMEN! So Jesus living in and through you, is Jesus in you a LAW BREAKER? Does He break the Law through you?
______________
You said quote: "Read Hebrews. Jesus did not come from the levitical tribe. He was not a priest of the Old Law. He was of the line of Melek Tzedek (King of Righteousnes)"
My response: LOL, I have written a book about Melchisedec. It is an attribute-by-attribute character study, comparing Jesus and Melchisedec.
______________
You said quote: "He bought a different sacrifice that instituted a different law, the law of Loving as Christ has loved us. As I said it is not about motivation and ability."
My response: Seriously???? You believe that you are NOT any more enabled with the Holy Spirit living in you????
WOW! That is pitifully sad!
______________
You said quote: "Now read 1Tim 1:6-7 and tell me whether you come into that category or not."
My response: This is an easy question... VERSE 8
1 Timothy 1:8 - "But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;"
Jesus living in me will NEVER LEAD ME TO VIOLATE GOD'S LAW!
______________
You said quote: "If you are teaching that we need to keep the law , after we have been saved in order for God righteousness to be imparted to us, then I believe you do come into that category."
My response: I teach that the Holy Spirit in me will NEVER LEAD ME TO VIOLATE GOD'S LAW... NEVER!
______________
You said quote: "I say these things with a strong conviction that I am dividing God's word correctly, because I have seen Christians who have tried to live according to the law feel inadequate and condemned."
My response: I am strongly convinced of this...
CHRIST IN ME IS NOT A LAW BREAKER!
Most people who proclaim the battle cry "we are not under the Law" are proclaiming a licentiousness.
Here is what the Bible says about the grace of God and lawlessness! It does NOT get much STRONGER than this!
1.Jude 1:4 - "For certain men have crept in stealthily [gaining entrance secretly by a side door]. Their doom was predicted long ago, ungodly (impious, profane) persons WHO PERVERT THE GRACE (the spiritual blessing and favor) OF OUR GOD INTO LAWLESSNESS and wantonness and immorality, and disown and deny our sole Master and Lord, Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One)."
Charles King, Management Consultant & Christian Minister
I am not sure why we are so hung up on the law versus grace, they are two sides to same coin. If no law then there is no need grace. The law does the same thing after salvation as it does before. It points us to grace (Jesus). We need to confess and repent of any sin and every we commit. Maybe why so many resist the Law is they do not want to serve anything!
2Ti 3:15 -17 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. [16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
How about verse 17 above and how it seems to agree to Ep 2:8-10.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast. [10]For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
How about all of us examining our own hearts and see if we like to leave of verse 10 as we preach the gospel as if it is only Ep 2:8-9 and say that any works is of the law and not grace!
LOMANI UILOU, Minister of Religion (SPD) Limited
I am very surprise to have noticed that most of my comments have been deleted. Looks like the person who had deleted them don't like the Biblical Truth that is stated in them - does not like others to read them otherwise his false teachings and unbiblical could be understood by those who are searching for the Biblical Truth… If you don't like don't touch it. Don't hide the truth because it will be bad not only for you but for those you hide it from them. May God bless you as you teach your false and unbiblical message.
John Swain, Volunteer Worker at Bethany Community Church Harpenden
Robert Dallmann
I would like to publicly apologize for the incorrect spelling of you name in my last comment. I did not intend to abuse your name, neither did I seek to disparage you in any way. It was a genuine typing error on my part. I did not set out to belittle you or defame your name in any way. For the offence that I have caused you I most humbly apologize.
Michael Nimz, Anabaptist Network Outreach Worker
Dear Lomani, your previous comments are still on this thread. They are just hidden because of the length of the this thread.
Please keep up the good work, everyone. I am really enjoying this. It is understood that according the people of Israel in the 1st century that obeying the Law brought about salvation. Doing what was instructed by the Law helped one to earn salvation. We also have stated in so many different ways in this thread that with Jesus, grace gives us salvation. Grace, the gift of forgiveness and the help of Holy Spirit allows us to start to do good. With all of this being said, can the Law, instead of being used to define sin and death, be a tool for us to love our neighbour, to forgive and to be gracious to others, inside and outside of the faith? If we see the Law as a means to live out the example that Jesus showed us, how does that impact our understanding of Law and Grace?
Robert Dallmann, Director at ChristLife, Inc.
Hi John Swain,
Apology accepted. Thank you.
Robert Dallmann, Director at ChristLife, Inc.
Hi Michael Nimz,
To me it simply boils down to...
* Is Jesus Christ a Law Breaker? (No - Hebrews 4:15)
* Does Jesus live in and through me? (Yes - Galatians 2:20)
* If so, will He break the Law through me? (No - 1 John 3:4)
* Is there an expectation that true believers be obedient? (Yes - 1 John 3:7)
Bruno VAN de VLIET, National director of Every Home for Christ
Robert. not all logical issues are biblical, and in this case I think you are wrong. Christ is the fulfilment of the Law, so the law is over, He can't break the Law in you, that is something you do, don't blame the Lord for things people do. Jesus gave His Life to fulfill the Law, so please a bit more respect for our Lord.
Robert Dallmann, Director at ChristLife, Inc.
Hi Bruno,
According to Jesus, the Law is NOT over... heaven and earth are still here; therefore, Jesus says NOT ONE jot or tittle has passed away.
Matthew 5:18 - "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."
_____________
You said quote: "He can't break the Law in you, that is something you do, don't blame the Lord for things people do. Jesus gave His Life to fulfill the Law, so please a bit more respect for our Lord."
My response: Please, take the time to carefully read my post. You have misunderstood what I said. You make my point EXACTLY.
If Jesus lives in us, and He obeys the Law, then we are expected to obey because of Him living through us.
If you say God does NOT expect us to keep the Law, then it is YOU who is disrespectful of Jesus, not I.
God still expects us to obey, "Thou shalt not murder, covet, steal, lie, etc."
Simon Zelikman, at Emmanuel's Doorpost
Michael, and all,
Your ............
" We also have stated in so many different ways in this thread that with Jesus, grace gives us salvation. Grace, the gift of forgiveness and the help of Holy Spirit allows us to start to do good.""
Grace, does not "give" anything, it is not an entity onto itself, just as the Law is not a some thing, because it is many things, many laws, some Christ destroyed and others He did not.
It is Jesus's Grace and Law, He is the Word/Commandment, and it is His Grace, it is He who gives Grace/Forgiveness, and we would not know what to seek forgiveness for if it was not for His Law, and God's Law was taught to men by God from Adam on, and I believe way before that, but that is another subject, and we know that the Law will be forever, because it is written in our hearts.
God bless
John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited
Michael asks:
"Can the Law, instead of being used to define sin and death, be a tool for us to love our neighbour, to forgive and to be gracious to others, inside and outside of the faith? If we see the Law as a means to live out the example that Jesus showed us, how does that impact our understanding of Law and Grace?"
Great question.
For me, no. I don't see the Law as a means to live out the example Jesus showed us.
I suppose the law works in the sense it tells me what I shouldn't be doing - i.e. not worshipping false idols, not killing others, not committing adultery, not coveting what another has etc. etc.
Frankly speaking - I am just not inspired to follow Jesus by a whole bunch of 'do nots.'
I find them de-motivating, they 'kill me', trap me in the mire of my own inadequacy, paralyzed from doing any good at all.
What inspires me to follow Jesus is the expanse of what he asks us, in Paul's terminology - his continual 'Yes' to the promise of his Spirit working in us.
I find the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5-7) and Luke Chapters 6 & 12 the inspiration for a lifetime of lifetimes!
I find the high water marks Jesus set in his own life and asks us to replicate of 'becoming poor that others might be rich', 'turning the other cheek to those who strike you', 'selling everything to provide for the poor,' 'taking up one's cross', 'loving the stranger and one's enemies', going out as sheep among wolves and peacemakers in the midst of violence utterly captivating.
None of those things are asked of us by the Law, but Jesus does. In this Jesus is the great YES to all that God asks of us - YES not only by his example, and YES not only by his matchless words and commands but YES in his enabling us to say YES to all he asks of us!
Two of the bright lights in the 20th Century - one Christian and the other Hindu - found their inspiration to turn the other cheek, to love their enemies and to be peacemakers in their time not from the Law of Moses, nor from the dictates of their own religion and culture, but from words of Jesus. They said YES to words they knew would mark them as unique to their generation. It is to God's glory that He gave them the strength to do what Jesus commanded despite their foibles and short-comings, and even in Gandhi's case, a very different theology.
My sense of the hurting world that surrounds us is we don't have time to bicker anymore. Christ isn't awaiting for theological uniformity nor for even a common understanding among us about the relative merits of Law and Grace.
What he wants from us is our YES to being empowered by his Spirit to serve others, most especially those who have less than we do - less income, less opportunity, less ability, less faith, less education, less friends, less community, less love, less peace, less resource, and less hope - and in relationship with them find life, freedom, faith and fearlessness in Christ.
LOMANI UILOU, Minister of Religion (SPD) Limited
John - the law was, is, and will never be a tool. All that it does is tell us what is not right to do. It is the "flesh" that makes you not desire to obey God's law and the law does not kill you - it is the consequence of disobeying the law that kills ("wages of sin is death"). The law was never meant to "save" or to "kill" anyone. It is with our own effort that fails us to observe the law. It is the power of and from Christ that enables us to observe the law.
One other thing I'm concern with is that you seems to eradicate the law and on the other hand vindicate the law by exposing all the "good works" you are doing (save by good deeds). I just wish that we won't be too busy doing good to others ("love your neighbour") and have forgotten God ("Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind") which is the most important.
Keep on doing the good works (God loves it) but don't forget God's side - to obey him.
John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited
Thanks Lomani for your encouragement.
I am one of those people who believe that in loving one's neighbour one learns to love God and vice-versa.
In sharing some of the insights of this group with one of my homeless friends, Lloyd Mangal, he said: 'I never liked the 10 Commandments. I just like the two Jesus gave us: to love God and love one another. I can handle those two, which if I remember correctly, is all we're supposed to do!"
Delete 9 hours ago
Question posed by Michael Nimz, Anabaptist Outreach Worker
What does grace mean to you? Once we have grace, what place does the law hold in our lives and in our churches? - continued...
LOMANI UILOU, Minister of Religion (SPD) Limited
We are only contempt and kill by the law because of NOT OBEYING THE LAW - For those who obey God's law they are not contempt, and this will apparently and finally be on the day of JUDGEMENT. Romans 1:18 "For the wrath of God is revealed … against ALL UNGODLINESS AND WICKEDNESS OF MEN WHO BY THEIR WICKEDNESS SUBRESS THE TRUTH". 2:6-13 "For He will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who DOES EVIL … but glory and honour and peace for every one who DOES GOOD … For God shows no partiality. ALL WHO HAVE SINNED WITHOUT THE LAW WILL ALSO BE PERISH WITHOUT THE LAW, AND ALL WHO HAVE SINNED UNDER THE LAW WILL BE JUDGED BY THE LAW…
… FOR IT IS NOT THE HEARERS OF THE LAW WHO ARE RIGHTEOUS BEFORE GOD, BUT THE DOERS OF THE LAW WHO ARE JUSTIFIED"
Looks like Paul is contradicting himself and his writings! NO! HE IS NOT! Some just don't understand his writing - especially miss the context.
Romans 7 is one of my favourite passages. How could you skip earlier verses: 1 - 3 "The law has dominion over a man as long as he lives" - While we are alive we are obliged to obey the law. For one reason: NOT TO SAVE US but because we are obliged to and we will be judge (on JUDGEMENT DAY base on this law = 10 Commandments).
What does it mean "dead to the law through the body of Christ" - it does not mean that the law is finished. It means "COMMITMENT TO OBEY THE LAW NO MATTER WHAT THE COST" - that is why the same author says in Romans 12:1 "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that YOU OFFER YOUR BODIES A LIVING SACRIFICE, HOLY, ACCEPTABLE TO GOD, which is your reasonable service."
However, we seem to focus on Paul's writing and have ignored the Gospels and the other epistles. 1 John 1:8-9 "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
What do we have to CONFESS if there is no sin, which means no breaking of the law? 2:4 "He who says 'I know him' but DISOBEYS HIS COMMANDMENTS IS A LIAR, and the TRUTH IS NOT IN HIM."
It is important that we take into account and consideration all passages where LAW (10 COMMANDMENTS) and GRACE is mentioned so that we won't have the entire Scripture contradicting itself. May I suggest, if Paul's writing is not understood just focus on Jesus' entire teachings, it is very simple to understand. Above all, we have salvation only from Jesus and not any other. Stick with Jesus because misunderstanding of Paul's writing could be a painful consequent; worse of all is one teaches the wrong message - one would be responsible for the other person's blood (being taught with the wrong message).
Mbuye Otiti, Advocacy Minister at Visionary Believers in Christ Network International
Grace is the Divine Provision from God's Throne of Mercy and Truth Which is in Christ Jesus the Word Lord; by Which Jesus separates man from his Sin, its works and life; as He enjoins him/her unto Himself to Partake together with them, of His Divine Works of Grace and Truth to make them Become the sons of God according to John 1:-10-14, Romans 8:1-19. The Law is Spiritual; and It is Ordained of God in His Divine Grace; to make man realize and see his Sin in him; and then turn to Christ Jesus the Lamb; and identify with Him according to His Redemptive Works which He accomplished in Him on His Cross before the world was; which He Manifested Israel when He Came and Became Flesh.
John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited
Lomani:
I love it when my best defence is provided by my opponent. Your reference to Romans 7:1-3 is the perfect summary of what I am trying to say.
"Now, dear brothers and sisters—you who are familiar with the law—don’t you know that the law applies only while a person is living? For example, when a woman marries, the law binds her to her husband as long as he is alive. But if he dies, the laws of marriage no longer apply to her. So while her husband is alive, she would be committing adultery if she married another man. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law and does not commit adultery when she remarries.
So, my dear brothers and sisters, this is the point: You died to the power of the law when you died with Christ. And now you are united with the one who was raised from the dead. As a result, we can produce a harvest of good deeds for God." Romans 7:1-4 NLT
Taking exactly what those verses say - before Christ, I was married to the law. I was bound to it for as long as I was alive. But with Christ, I died to the law when I died in Christ.
And now that I am dead to the law, who am I now married to?
I am married to the one who was raised from the dead and as a result, I can - in the community of others who are also married to Christ - produce a harvest of good deeds for God.
Put another way - when I wake up each day, from whom do I receive my marching orders? From the law of Moses or from the Spirit of Christ? Obviously the latter.
So what purpose has the Law? The law is for the lawless.
It is also an added measure that calls me to account if in my claim to be following Christ I am doing less than loving my neighbour.
If I claim to obey Christ and am unfaithful to my wife, then I am breach of the commandment about adultery. But before committing adultery as the law of Moses framed it, I would have been in breach of Christ's command of having looked at another woman with lust in my heart.
In short, if I am living in disobedience to 'the law of life in the Spirit', Christ himself will be the first to oppose me in advance of the Law. It is the breach in the experience of his love for me that will be the first sign of my disobedience. My experience of being cut off from his love will do more to bring me 'into line' than the law ever could. Hence the law came with Moses BUT grace and truth came with Jesus Christ. I rely solely on the latter. And if obedient to Christ, I fulfill the former.
"May the words of my mouth
and the meditation of my heart
be pleasing to you,
O Lord, my rock and my redeemer." Psalm 19:14
When we love Jesus and seek to be obedient to him daily, we begin to experience his pleasure, 'to taste and see that the Lord is good.'
It is only in that experience - in community with others - that we grow in both love and obedience. The Law is incapable of producing either love or obedience. How can it? It is only a schoolmaster whose one eternal lesson is 'all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.' Thus the Law leads us to Christ. Once with Christ, we need no other, we obey no other and we are only answerable to him, not only on the Last Day but daily in fellowship with those who walk with him.
Robert Dallmann, Director at ChristLife, Inc.
1 John 3:4 - "...for sin is the transgression of the law."
Romans 6:15 - "What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? GOD FORBID."
John Swain, Volunteer Worker at Bethany Community Church Harpenden
No wonder the church is in the state it's in when we have ministers of religion, and christian directors plucking verses out which are out of context, and which are being presented through their personal legalistic filter. It is wrong to handle scripture by promoting doctrine from selected, isolated verses. Scripture must be seen as a whole, with scripture interpreting itself. Take the above comments from Robert Dallmann as an example. Is Paul in Romans 6:15 promoting law keeping as Mr Dallmann seems to be implying. NO. Not if you read it in context and as a whole with other NT teaching. He is saying that it would seem that grace gives licence to do anything we want to because we are no longer under the law. God forbid, says Paul. The law makes sin come alive, the strength of sin is the law, we are dead to sin and alive to Christ, therefore we ought to be displaying Christ like life, not sin. What should be coming out of our lives is the fruit that the Spirit within us produces, which is summed up in Jesus' commandment, which supersedes all the OT commandments which is to Love God and others as Christ has loved us. !
1 John 3:4 is correct. Sin is a transgression of the law. But read the context. We are dead to sin. Jesus came to take away sin. As believers we have had sin taken away, therefore the law has no hold over us or power to condemn. We are the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus, we are sons of God. Marvel at the love God has bestowed on us, that we are the sons of God, righteous before God and whatever we do, nothing can separate us from this love and our position in Him. Our quickened spirits are sinless, our soul's desire is to fall in line with our spirit, and, like Paul, we discipline our body to come in line with our soul and spirit. We don't let the sin nature in our bodies take control, but as 1 John 3:3 says we purify ourselves.
To teach that we have been saved and given the Holy Spirit just so that we can try to keep the law better is a poor second rate gospel as far as I am concerned, and is not what I read in the scripture.
Before Moses God did not impute men's sins to them, during the time of the law and the prophets God did impute men's sins to them, now those who are in Christ do not have their sins imputed to them. We are dead to sin, therefore dead to the law, we are alive in Christ therefore we are righteous, in right standing before a Holy God.
Robert Dallmann, Director at ChristLife, Inc.
I always love it when I quote the Bible, with NO COMMENTARY... and someone says...
IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT!
So John Swain, you advocate allowing Christians to sin?
Here is another one for you to REJECT...
______
The Apostle Paul said...
Acts 24:14 - (AMP) - "But this I confess to you, however, that in accordance with the Way [of the Lord], which they call a [heretical, division-producing] sect, I worship (serve) the God of our fathers, STILL PERSUADED OF THE TRUTH OF AND BELIEVING IN AND PLACING FULL CONFIDENCE IN EVERYTHING LAID DOWN IN THE LAW [OF MOSES] OR WRITTEN IN THE PROPHETS;"
Of course, the Apostle Paul agrees with Jesus, Who said...
Matthew 5:18 - "For verily I say unto you, TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS, ONE JOT OR ONE TITTLE SHALL IN NO WISE PASS from the law, TILL ALL BE FULFILLED."
Last time I checked, heaven and earth were still here, so according to Jesus NONE of the Law has passed away.
Anthony Verderame, Speaker ♦ Counselor ♦ Mind Coach ♦ Helping individuals & churches experience lives that thrive!
My heart breaks for His Body when I read threads like this. Living/walking in love IS living/walking BY HIS LIFE!
Charles King, Management Consultant & Christian Minister
Does anyone but me see a direct relationship to the following verses?
Deu 7:9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;
Deu 10:12 And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul,
Jos 1:7 Only be thou strong and very courageous, that thou mayest observe to do according to all the law, which Moses my servant commanded thee: turn not from it to the right hand or to the left, that thou mayest prosper whithersoever thou goest.
Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
Jhn 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
It appears Jesus is saying the same thing that the Old Testament writers were saying!
1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Based on 1 John 2:4 taken out of context, there may be a lot of liars!
Robert Dallmann, Director at ChristLife, Inc.
AMEN Charles...
Hebrews 7:12 - "For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law."
There HAS been a change in the Law. The change in the Law has to do with motivation and enablement!
OT Motivation - to earn something from God, salvation, favor, blessings, etc.
NT Motivation - LOVE for God and His people
OT Ability - SELF - it was impossible to obey
NT Ability - CHRIST IN US - it is possible to obey
____________
Galatians 2:20 - "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but CHRIST LIVETH IN ME: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."
So the question is a simple one...
Jesus lives in and through me, is Jesus a LAW BREAKER?
Is it conceivable that Jesus after the resurrection now allows for violating the Law?
John Swain, Volunteer Worker at Bethany Community Church Harpenden
Robert Dallmann:-
I think you read my threads like you must read the Bible. I have not and never will advocate sin. Neither can you justify keeping the law in this age of grace. It is not a case of motivation and ability. It is a case that we now stand in a totally different relationship with God than anyone ever did in the OT. No one in the OT was born of the Spirit. We are. You need to stop using OT law scriptures to justify NT law keeping. If you read my last thread carefully you will see that I advocate righteousness and purity not sin. If you have got to keep the law to please God you have misunderstood who you are in God and the utterly fantastic relationship he has bought us into, through Jesus' sacrificial death and resurrection.
Robert Dallmann, Director at ChristLife, Inc.
John Swain,
You said quote: "If you read my last thread carefully you will see that I advocate righteousness and purity not sin."
My response: Since you seem to have a problem with the Bible's definition. How do you define "sin"?
I like the Bible definition myself!
1 John 3:4 - "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."
Robert Dallmann, Director at ChristLife, Inc.
John Swain said quote: "It is not a case of motivation and ability."
My response: Do you really believe that Jesus living in and through you by the Holy Spirit does NOT change your ability to obey? Really?
_____
Romans 6:15 - "What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid."
John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited
John Swain:
I find your entries inspiring. As one who for years struggled, as did Martin Luther, with trying to live by the law, I was an abysmal failure at it. I had come to Christ but had found in trying to obey the law that I was bond to a servitude which had me persuaded that to be a Christian was anything but free.
My route to finding freedom in Christ was a sequitous one helped in large part by reading Martin Luther's 'Introduction to Galatians' - where among other things, he introduces that incredible scriptural phrase: 'the just shall live by faith.'
It hit me as it had him. I was seeking to be just by obeying the law rather than accepting that I am justified: by faith in Jesus Christ. To quote the great Charles Wesley line 'my chains fell off, my heart set free, I rose, went forth and followed Thee.' In following Jesus I am free, I am free, I am free! Utmost in that freedom, was the freedom to obey Him in a way I never could while trying to obey the law.
The irony of grace, of living by the Spirit rather than by the letter of the law - is that even though I am held to a higher standard than the 10 Commandments; and to the more disciplined walk of 'sharing in his sufferings and in the power of his resurrection', I have truly discovered the way of Christ is freedom, whereas to live by the law was death.
Robert and Charles are right in the sense that the law remains 'until heaven and earth pass away' but what they forget - and I can so easily forget - is that our relationship to the law changed the moment we died in Christ.
We were once married to the law, but thank God in Christ we were baptized into his death and raised to newness of life, where we are no longer married to the law, but joined to Christ himself.
In being Christ's, we are now called to greater things than the law could have ever taken us. In a word these greater things are to love our neighbour as Christ loves our neighbour, and to rejoice in the liberty of being sons and daughters of the most High - solely on account of his grace.
Robert Dallmann, Director at ChristLife, Inc.
Hi John Deacon,
You said quote: "Robert and Charles are right in the sense that the law remains 'until heaven and earth pass away' but what they forget - and I can so easily forget - is that our relationship to the law changed the moment we died in Christ."
My response: I did not forget this fact, I actually quoted the verse a few posts ago. Here is my post from above...
"Hebrews 7:12 - "For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law."
There HAS been a change in the Law. The change in the Law has to do with motivation and enablement!
OT Motivation - to earn something from God, salvation, favor, blessings, etc.
NT Motivation - LOVE for God and His people
OT Ability - SELF - it was impossible to obey
NT Ability - CHRIST IN US - it is possible to obey"
________________
I agree that we are called to greater things than the Law, and this is where the motivation and empowering comes into play.
OT Law says don't murder...
NT Grace says don't even be unjustly angry...
OT Law says don't commit adultery...
NT Grace says don't even look at a woman with lust...
Grace has higher requirements than the Law!
Rev Peter Sekyi, Founder/Senior Pastor at Word Foundation Centre International Ministry
Hi Robert,
Do you remember that Paul said this in defence of the accusation by his
fellow Jews that he was preaching things that were not in line with Jewish
beliefs? So the apostle as a natural descendant of Benjamin told the court
he had followed everything the required of him as a Jew. That he believed
in the law as much as they did. If you would recollect there was another
occasion when he had gone to Jerusalem with some fellow believers and for
the sake of the Pharisees and Scribes some of the believers in Christ
including Paul had to go through purification to please the Jews. Acts
21:15-28; Acts 15:1-29
Again, Jesus spoke to the Jews who had a hard time believing in him as the
Messiah. Their rejection of Jesus meant there strict adherence to the law
and the prophets though that could not save any of them. So in effect,
Jesus said to them if you guys had rejected me for the law then know that
every law would have to be fulfilled. The prophetic significance of the
five books of Moses that had not been fulfilled yet would be and what
remains had all been fulfilled by Jesus Christ. By implication, Jesus said
to them whoever lives by the law shall be judged by the law nothing shall
be overlooked. Take a serious note of the following: Romans 3:19-20, 21-31
then let me know the basis on which both Noah and Abraham were justified
since they lived before the law.
Bless you my brother.
Rev Peter Sekyi
John Swain, Volunteer Worker at Bethany Community Church Harpenden
Robert Dullmann.
Let me ask you a question. Do you keep all the law. Have you ever looked on a woman and had lust in your heart? because if you have kept all the law to that level since becoming a Christian you are an exceptional man. If not then you are condemned by the law.
The law continues until heaven and earth pass away, but not for righteous men.(1Tim1:9)
I have died with Christ and been raised in newness of life, I have not been raised to the old life of trying to fulfill the law. Read Hebrews. Jesus did not come from the levitical tribe. He was not a priest of the Old Law. He was of the line of Melek Tzedek (King of Righteousnes) He bought a different sacrifice that instituted a different law, the law of Loving as Christ has loved us. As I said it is not about motivation and ability. Its about condemnation under the old law and No condemnation under the new one. The OT law was to show you that you could never, ever, ever be good enough The OT law made sin come alive in us and bring its consequence which is death. NT shows that Jesus Christ has fulfilled the righteous requirements of the law, we have died to sin, and Jesus is now able to impute his righteousness to us.
1 Tim 1:5 shows that the end of the command ( the word end used here in the Greek means the conclusion of an act or state) is charity (the word for charity used here is agape) Love, out of a pure heart and a good conscience and of un-hypocritical faith. That's what true grace brings. Not a licence to sin, but a desire, out of a pure heart, to live Holy as He is Holy.
Now read 1Tim 1:6-7 and tell me whether you come into that category or not. If you are teaching that we need to keep the law , after we have been saved in order for God righteousness to be imparted to us, then I believe you do come into that category.
I say these things with a strong conviction that I am dividing God's word correctly, because I have seen Christians who have tried to live according to the law feel inadequate and condemned. However, when they have understood the truth of who they are and what they have in Christ they become empowered to boldly share their faith, they have confidence in God and his word, their desire to sin falls away and they move into new levels of operating in the Spirits gifting. Romans 8 truely becomes a reality for them.
Robert Dallmann, Director at ChristLife, Inc.
Hi Rev Peter Sekyi
You said quote: "Do you remember that Paul said this in defence of the accusation by his
fellow Jews that he was preaching things that were not in line with Jewish
beliefs?"
My response: So you are saying the Paul was lying to save his skin?
Why did Paul quote the Law of Moses to the Gentile believers in Corinth in 1 Corinthians 9:8-9?
1 Corinthians 9:8-9 - "Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also? (9) For it is written in the LAW OF MOSES, thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
Seems odd that Paul would be teaching a useless Law of Moses to primarily Gentile believers.
____________
As for Jesus, in just one chapter before, He quoted the OT to satan in self defense against His temptations in the wilderness. Jesus said...
Matthew 4:4 - "But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, BUT BY EVERY WORD that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."
____________
For me, I am sticking with Jesus... He said we should LIVE BY EVERY WORD from God, and that works for me.
LOMANI UILOU, Minister of Religion (SPD) Limited
Brothers in Christ - we don't keep the law in order to come to Christ (Bible says: "The law" (10 Commandments! Not the ceremonial law) "points us to Christ". We Come to Christ and through the power of and from Christ, we are enabled to obey the law. One last thing I like to remind us is: the ceremonial law (which includes all rituals in the sanctuary were only shadows, they were pointing forward to Jesus - these are the laws that were vanished and done away with) is not the same as the decalogue, 10 Commandments, - which does not change, not finished (Jesus said: "I did not come to abolish"), it "is good … holy … righteous … perfect … and stands forever." Why would one hate, don't like, reject, and get rid of something so "good … righteous … perfect … and holy". One could only have to be mad to do such thing. Apparently, the 10 Commandments has Godly qualities and I believe they are qualities that God likes us to have.
Robert Dallmann, Director at ChristLife, Inc.
Hi John Swain,
You said quote: "Robert Dullmann"
My response: Nice abuse of my last name. However, I am not the "dull" one here. I quote the Word of God and you do mental gymnastics to discredit what it clearly says.
______________
You said quote: "Let me ask you a question. Do you keep all the law. Have you ever looked on a woman and had lust in your heart? because if you have kept all the law to that level since becoming a Christian you are an exceptional man. If not then you are condemned by the law."
My response: You should ACTUALLY READ what I have posted (TWICE now) about the "change" in the Law. Please scroll up and find my post.
______________
You said quote: "The law continues until heaven and earth pass away, but not for righteous men.(1Tim1:9)"
My response: I agree. Paul says it this way in Galatians...
Galatians 5:18 - "But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law."
Does God allow you to VIOLATE His holy, just, and good Law at those times when you are NOT led by the Spirit?
Or would you have us to believe that you are ALWAYS led by the Spirit?
______________
You said quote: "I have died with Christ and been raised in newness of life, I have not been raised to the old life of trying to fulfill the law."
My response: AMEN! So Jesus living in and through you, is Jesus in you a LAW BREAKER? Does He break the Law through you?
______________
You said quote: "Read Hebrews. Jesus did not come from the levitical tribe. He was not a priest of the Old Law. He was of the line of Melek Tzedek (King of Righteousnes)"
My response: LOL, I have written a book about Melchisedec. It is an attribute-by-attribute character study, comparing Jesus and Melchisedec.
______________
You said quote: "He bought a different sacrifice that instituted a different law, the law of Loving as Christ has loved us. As I said it is not about motivation and ability."
My response: Seriously???? You believe that you are NOT any more enabled with the Holy Spirit living in you????
WOW! That is pitifully sad!
______________
You said quote: "Now read 1Tim 1:6-7 and tell me whether you come into that category or not."
My response: This is an easy question... VERSE 8
1 Timothy 1:8 - "But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;"
Jesus living in me will NEVER LEAD ME TO VIOLATE GOD'S LAW!
______________
You said quote: "If you are teaching that we need to keep the law , after we have been saved in order for God righteousness to be imparted to us, then I believe you do come into that category."
My response: I teach that the Holy Spirit in me will NEVER LEAD ME TO VIOLATE GOD'S LAW... NEVER!
______________
You said quote: "I say these things with a strong conviction that I am dividing God's word correctly, because I have seen Christians who have tried to live according to the law feel inadequate and condemned."
My response: I am strongly convinced of this...
CHRIST IN ME IS NOT A LAW BREAKER!
Most people who proclaim the battle cry "we are not under the Law" are proclaiming a licentiousness.
Here is what the Bible says about the grace of God and lawlessness! It does NOT get much STRONGER than this!
1.Jude 1:4 - "For certain men have crept in stealthily [gaining entrance secretly by a side door]. Their doom was predicted long ago, ungodly (impious, profane) persons WHO PERVERT THE GRACE (the spiritual blessing and favor) OF OUR GOD INTO LAWLESSNESS and wantonness and immorality, and disown and deny our sole Master and Lord, Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One)."
Charles King, Management Consultant & Christian Minister
I am not sure why we are so hung up on the law versus grace, they are two sides to same coin. If no law then there is no need grace. The law does the same thing after salvation as it does before. It points us to grace (Jesus). We need to confess and repent of any sin and every we commit. Maybe why so many resist the Law is they do not want to serve anything!
2Ti 3:15 -17 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. [16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
How about verse 17 above and how it seems to agree to Ep 2:8-10.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast. [10]For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
How about all of us examining our own hearts and see if we like to leave of verse 10 as we preach the gospel as if it is only Ep 2:8-9 and say that any works is of the law and not grace!
LOMANI UILOU, Minister of Religion (SPD) Limited
I am very surprise to have noticed that most of my comments have been deleted. Looks like the person who had deleted them don't like the Biblical Truth that is stated in them - does not like others to read them otherwise his false teachings and unbiblical could be understood by those who are searching for the Biblical Truth… If you don't like don't touch it. Don't hide the truth because it will be bad not only for you but for those you hide it from them. May God bless you as you teach your false and unbiblical message.
John Swain, Volunteer Worker at Bethany Community Church Harpenden
Robert Dallmann
I would like to publicly apologize for the incorrect spelling of you name in my last comment. I did not intend to abuse your name, neither did I seek to disparage you in any way. It was a genuine typing error on my part. I did not set out to belittle you or defame your name in any way. For the offence that I have caused you I most humbly apologize.
Michael Nimz, Anabaptist Network Outreach Worker
Dear Lomani, your previous comments are still on this thread. They are just hidden because of the length of the this thread.
Please keep up the good work, everyone. I am really enjoying this. It is understood that according the people of Israel in the 1st century that obeying the Law brought about salvation. Doing what was instructed by the Law helped one to earn salvation. We also have stated in so many different ways in this thread that with Jesus, grace gives us salvation. Grace, the gift of forgiveness and the help of Holy Spirit allows us to start to do good. With all of this being said, can the Law, instead of being used to define sin and death, be a tool for us to love our neighbour, to forgive and to be gracious to others, inside and outside of the faith? If we see the Law as a means to live out the example that Jesus showed us, how does that impact our understanding of Law and Grace?
Robert Dallmann, Director at ChristLife, Inc.
Hi John Swain,
Apology accepted. Thank you.
Robert Dallmann, Director at ChristLife, Inc.
Hi Michael Nimz,
To me it simply boils down to...
* Is Jesus Christ a Law Breaker? (No - Hebrews 4:15)
* Does Jesus live in and through me? (Yes - Galatians 2:20)
* If so, will He break the Law through me? (No - 1 John 3:4)
* Is there an expectation that true believers be obedient? (Yes - 1 John 3:7)
Bruno VAN de VLIET, National director of Every Home for Christ
Robert. not all logical issues are biblical, and in this case I think you are wrong. Christ is the fulfilment of the Law, so the law is over, He can't break the Law in you, that is something you do, don't blame the Lord for things people do. Jesus gave His Life to fulfill the Law, so please a bit more respect for our Lord.
Robert Dallmann, Director at ChristLife, Inc.
Hi Bruno,
According to Jesus, the Law is NOT over... heaven and earth are still here; therefore, Jesus says NOT ONE jot or tittle has passed away.
Matthew 5:18 - "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."
_____________
You said quote: "He can't break the Law in you, that is something you do, don't blame the Lord for things people do. Jesus gave His Life to fulfill the Law, so please a bit more respect for our Lord."
My response: Please, take the time to carefully read my post. You have misunderstood what I said. You make my point EXACTLY.
If Jesus lives in us, and He obeys the Law, then we are expected to obey because of Him living through us.
If you say God does NOT expect us to keep the Law, then it is YOU who is disrespectful of Jesus, not I.
God still expects us to obey, "Thou shalt not murder, covet, steal, lie, etc."
Simon Zelikman, at Emmanuel's Doorpost
Michael, and all,
Your ............
" We also have stated in so many different ways in this thread that with Jesus, grace gives us salvation. Grace, the gift of forgiveness and the help of Holy Spirit allows us to start to do good.""
Grace, does not "give" anything, it is not an entity onto itself, just as the Law is not a some thing, because it is many things, many laws, some Christ destroyed and others He did not.
It is Jesus's Grace and Law, He is the Word/Commandment, and it is His Grace, it is He who gives Grace/Forgiveness, and we would not know what to seek forgiveness for if it was not for His Law, and God's Law was taught to men by God from Adam on, and I believe way before that, but that is another subject, and we know that the Law will be forever, because it is written in our hearts.
God bless
John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited
Michael asks:
"Can the Law, instead of being used to define sin and death, be a tool for us to love our neighbour, to forgive and to be gracious to others, inside and outside of the faith? If we see the Law as a means to live out the example that Jesus showed us, how does that impact our understanding of Law and Grace?"
Great question.
For me, no. I don't see the Law as a means to live out the example Jesus showed us.
I suppose the law works in the sense it tells me what I shouldn't be doing - i.e. not worshipping false idols, not killing others, not committing adultery, not coveting what another has etc. etc.
Frankly speaking - I am just not inspired to follow Jesus by a whole bunch of 'do nots.'
I find them de-motivating, they 'kill me', trap me in the mire of my own inadequacy, paralyzed from doing any good at all.
What inspires me to follow Jesus is the expanse of what he asks us, in Paul's terminology - his continual 'Yes' to the promise of his Spirit working in us.
I find the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5-7) and Luke Chapters 6 & 12 the inspiration for a lifetime of lifetimes!
I find the high water marks Jesus set in his own life and asks us to replicate of 'becoming poor that others might be rich', 'turning the other cheek to those who strike you', 'selling everything to provide for the poor,' 'taking up one's cross', 'loving the stranger and one's enemies', going out as sheep among wolves and peacemakers in the midst of violence utterly captivating.
None of those things are asked of us by the Law, but Jesus does. In this Jesus is the great YES to all that God asks of us - YES not only by his example, and YES not only by his matchless words and commands but YES in his enabling us to say YES to all he asks of us!
Two of the bright lights in the 20th Century - one Christian and the other Hindu - found their inspiration to turn the other cheek, to love their enemies and to be peacemakers in their time not from the Law of Moses, nor from the dictates of their own religion and culture, but from words of Jesus. They said YES to words they knew would mark them as unique to their generation. It is to God's glory that He gave them the strength to do what Jesus commanded despite their foibles and short-comings, and even in Gandhi's case, a very different theology.
My sense of the hurting world that surrounds us is we don't have time to bicker anymore. Christ isn't awaiting for theological uniformity nor for even a common understanding among us about the relative merits of Law and Grace.
What he wants from us is our YES to being empowered by his Spirit to serve others, most especially those who have less than we do - less income, less opportunity, less ability, less faith, less education, less friends, less community, less love, less peace, less resource, and less hope - and in relationship with them find life, freedom, faith and fearlessness in Christ.
LOMANI UILOU, Minister of Religion (SPD) Limited
John - the law was, is, and will never be a tool. All that it does is tell us what is not right to do. It is the "flesh" that makes you not desire to obey God's law and the law does not kill you - it is the consequence of disobeying the law that kills ("wages of sin is death"). The law was never meant to "save" or to "kill" anyone. It is with our own effort that fails us to observe the law. It is the power of and from Christ that enables us to observe the law.
One other thing I'm concern with is that you seems to eradicate the law and on the other hand vindicate the law by exposing all the "good works" you are doing (save by good deeds). I just wish that we won't be too busy doing good to others ("love your neighbour") and have forgotten God ("Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind") which is the most important.
Keep on doing the good works (God loves it) but don't forget God's side - to obey him.
John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited
Thanks Lomani for your encouragement.
I am one of those people who believe that in loving one's neighbour one learns to love God and vice-versa.
In sharing some of the insights of this group with one of my homeless friends, Lloyd Mangal, he said: 'I never liked the 10 Commandments. I just like the two Jesus gave us: to love God and love one another. I can handle those two, which if I remember correctly, is all we're supposed to do!"
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