But then this topic was raised by a pastor in Uganda, where the government is considering introducing the death penalty for homosexual activity:
Any advice on reaching out to "sexual minorities?" We have planted in an area that has many students and the challenge is on reaching out to those young people challenged by this social condition.
There is a big debate in my country today regarding the rights of sexual minorities, the Evangelical Movement has been very vocal in blocking the undue influence of LGBT defenders who are bent on frustrating the legislative process aimed at criminalising homosexuality.
Phil Smart •
Whether or not you agree with the behavior of the LGBT community, the
church needs to reach out to this minority in love rather than hate that
is so common in Uganda and East Africa. There are Christians in Uganda
that are reaching out, but do so quietly. Jesus was always on the side
of the marginalized and vulnerable - we should follow his example.
Gays are born gay, it's not a choice. Therefore they need to be loved
by the church and helped to feel safe and grow in Christ.
Moses Kalanzi •
Phil there are two things here one being whether it is a choice or a
natural thing. You will agree with me that the largest number of those
"marginalised" are actually people promoting it in schools in Uganda. I
strongly believe that the Church needs to reach out to those vulnerable
and those people society looks down upon but then as a Church leader, i
am strongly concerned about those people justifying agitation through
recruitment of children especially in boarding schools in Uganda into
homosexuality.
Phil Smart •
I appreciate your comments Moses. I've been to Uganda a number of times
and have heard this same theme - that there is some sort of recruitment
of children into homosexuality. I would like to know more - where does
this come from? In the west, most Christians, even though they believe
the behavior wrong, have come to believe that it's not a choice. Even
Exodus International has shut down because they came to that conclusion.
For that reason it's hard for us to understand this recruitment issue.
If it's not a choice, it would seem that this line of reasoning is
false. But you live there and so know more than I do. Is that the
overwhelming thought, or are there various views?
Moses Kalanzi •
I have been involved with a number of people in the past taking that
radical stance to the whole issue and I am friends with members of the
LGBT legal fraternity in Uganda with whom this matter has been debated. I
have tried to educate myself on the matter and have come to agree that
our cultures react to the circumstance differently. It has never been a
part of our society until the 1800 when we first had contact with the
Arab world during the earliest Long Distance Trade in East Africa. My
honest view is that while there might be individuals, a very small
number challenged by this condition, their "defenders" have been
opportunistic Ugandans who under the umbrella of LGBT rights advocacy
have tried to justify their work by recruiting and training minors and
then coming out to say they are being witch-hunted.
Moses Kalanzi •
I am ready to reach out to them to help them but the idea that this is a
natural condition that can not be changed limits my understanding of
how to draw them to Christ.
Phil Smart •
Moses, would love to visit with you when I'm in Uganda the first part of
December. You might know some of the pastors I'm visiting with. Would
also love to continue the conversation. If you could reply to me
privately, I'll give you my email and we can continue the discussion.
Fran Pultro •
Phil, your statement, "In the west, most Christians, even though they
believe the behavior wrong, have come to believe that it's not a
choice," is interesting.
Where do you get the statistics to back that up?
Where do you get the statistics to back that up?
Phil Smart •
As part of a conservative congregation, I know that many in the pews
might still feel it's a choice. However, in talking with Christian
counselors and those at Christian mental health institutions, I haven't
found one yet who believes that it's by choice. Some might say that
circumstances contribute, but most I've talked with say that it's just
the way someone is wired. Also, Exodus International (Formerly with
James Dobson's Focus on the Family) just shut down because they came to a
similar conclusion. Other reparative therapy ministries have also
closed or changed to, instead of trying to change orientation, minister
to gays as they seek to live a celibate life. What's your thought?
Moses Kalanzi •
So should ministering to them to live a celibate life be the
alternative? If this is not a choice as recent studies have concluded(
for which i don't want to say i know much about) then the love and
compassion Christ represented must be given to those challenged by the
condition. I am committed to seeing these members of the body of Christ
helped than condemned.
Ken Clark •
As Christians it is not our job to judge and condemn Homosexuals, but it
is our job to love them and accept them into the body of Christ as
repentant sinners. This means just like all other new born again
Christians they need to turn from sin to righteousness; which for
homosexuals means giving up their homosexual and effeminate life styles.
So far over the years of my life I have come to know well over 100 Gay men, some ex-gay men, a few Lesbian Women and ex-lesbians ; Work mates, friends, friends of family and people who have come to me for counselling.
Most of these became homosexuals for one of the following reasons; they choose to become a homosexual, pear group pressure, it’s the in thing to be homosexual.
Then there are those who become homosexual because of their effeminate or homosexual upbringing, or from being taught at home, at school, or from those in positions of influence that they look up to that this is the norm; and they just wanted to be accepted.
Then a few become homosexuals because of sexual abuse they have suffered.
But I have never come across a single homosexual who was born a homosexual. Some have said they were born Gay, but when you get to know them, you learn this is not true.
Is it possible to be born Gay? If it is, then I would say less than one in every 100,000 who say they were born Gay were in fact born Gay. So why should we hate the other 99,999 by not telling them the truth in love.
Those who say Gays are born gays hate gays by judging and condemning them to something they were never born to be.
So far over the years of my life I have come to know well over 100 Gay men, some ex-gay men, a few Lesbian Women and ex-lesbians ; Work mates, friends, friends of family and people who have come to me for counselling.
Most of these became homosexuals for one of the following reasons; they choose to become a homosexual, pear group pressure, it’s the in thing to be homosexual.
Then there are those who become homosexual because of their effeminate or homosexual upbringing, or from being taught at home, at school, or from those in positions of influence that they look up to that this is the norm; and they just wanted to be accepted.
Then a few become homosexuals because of sexual abuse they have suffered.
But I have never come across a single homosexual who was born a homosexual. Some have said they were born Gay, but when you get to know them, you learn this is not true.
Is it possible to be born Gay? If it is, then I would say less than one in every 100,000 who say they were born Gay were in fact born Gay. So why should we hate the other 99,999 by not telling them the truth in love.
Those who say Gays are born gays hate gays by judging and condemning them to something they were never born to be.
Moses Kalanzi •
With due respect to previous discussions on this thread. There is a
growing fear in Uganda here that minors are being recruited in schools
and orphanages into becoming gays with the lure of a better life. I can
agree with Pastor Ken Clark that many are simply taught or rather
victims of abuse. The Gay rights Movement( to whom some of the leaders
are personal friends) has many University students in halls of
residences doing recruitment. It both serves as a rights defender as
well as the role of propagating it. Nonetheless the Church should be
committed to reaching out, my challenge is how to reach out to a section
of our society that still wants to remain distinctive, recognised as
different
Ronald Bell •
I am a pastor in central part of United States and I firmly believe that
homosexuality is a choice; they are not born that way. God's word
states that men desire to have relations with other men the way they
would have relations with a woman, if they " desire " that is a choice.
Ronald Bell •
The way to reach students is to preach the true Gospel and to become
their friend. The younger generation wants to understand what true
Christianity is all about. They have many questions about God's word.
The most effective way to reach out to them is to establish a
relationship with them, we must show them that we really care.
Phil Smart •
I would suggest three books to give different perspectives and help in
understanding different sides of this discussion. First is "Torn" - by
Justin Lee (a young man that only wanted to follow Christ but was born
gay and was shunned by the church. He still loves God and now runs the
Gay Christian Network). Second is "Love is and Orientation" by Andrew
Marin (He doesn't want to change the stance that churches adopt about
this issues, just elevate the discussion to a level in which Christian
growth can occur). Third, Product Image
Bible, Gender, Sexuality: Reframing the Church's Debate on Same-Sex Relationships
by James V. Brownson (a major scholarly/biblical look by a conservative seminary professor)
Bible, Gender, Sexuality: Reframing the Church's Debate on Same-Sex Relationships
by James V. Brownson (a major scholarly/biblical look by a conservative seminary professor)
Marie Devine •
In my personal experience as a person, not a project etc., I have seen
two homosexual queens delivered from that life. One after befriending
him, and learned about him and he knew I cared about him, I read to him:
Romans 1:27, 28 King James Version (KJV)
27 "And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;"
He said, “Oh, Miss Marie, I do not want a reprobate mind.” I said, "Michael, you are a homosexual drag queen, you already have a reprobate mind." I believe that his statement that he did not want that opened the door for him because that spirit of lust was lifted from him that night I believe.
Now I comment on news articles saying something like this, because if what we say to them does not sound like love, they cannot receive our message.
"God condemns homosexuality in all holy books. It robs the people of a life with children they both create. It robs children of knowledge of their true bloodline and heritage and identity. Gays lose nothing with a spouse that can give them both a child; they can still have their great friend, only without sex with them."
God has severe consequences for sexual immorality and trying to turn people away from loving God and honoring His word. Sodom and Gomorrah did not happen overnight, but those who sympathized with them, relying on someone saying they were born that way, soon it is taught in schools and we lose our freedom of religion and are forced to hire them and rent to them and include them in our social groups. That is not the way of God. If they refuse to change, the least we are expected to do is separate from them socially. Treat them kindly in all other ways, but they must know there is a separation from godliness.
27 "And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;"
He said, “Oh, Miss Marie, I do not want a reprobate mind.” I said, "Michael, you are a homosexual drag queen, you already have a reprobate mind." I believe that his statement that he did not want that opened the door for him because that spirit of lust was lifted from him that night I believe.
Now I comment on news articles saying something like this, because if what we say to them does not sound like love, they cannot receive our message.
"God condemns homosexuality in all holy books. It robs the people of a life with children they both create. It robs children of knowledge of their true bloodline and heritage and identity. Gays lose nothing with a spouse that can give them both a child; they can still have their great friend, only without sex with them."
God has severe consequences for sexual immorality and trying to turn people away from loving God and honoring His word. Sodom and Gomorrah did not happen overnight, but those who sympathized with them, relying on someone saying they were born that way, soon it is taught in schools and we lose our freedom of religion and are forced to hire them and rent to them and include them in our social groups. That is not the way of God. If they refuse to change, the least we are expected to do is separate from them socially. Treat them kindly in all other ways, but they must know there is a separation from godliness.
Phil Smart •
It's interesting that many people use Sodom and Gomorrah as examples
when talking about God's judgement on gays. But that's not what the
Bible says. It comments itself in Ezekieal 16:46-50, saying that the
sins that got the city destroyed was pride, laziness and gluttony.
Ken Clark •
1Sa 15:23 KJVA For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and
stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the
word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.
In this verse God is not saying rebellion is witchcraft, nor is God saying stubbornness is idolatry. No God is saying rebellion is just as sinful as witchcraft and stubbornness is just as sinful as idolatry.
Thus when God in Ezekiel 16:46 – 50 compares to sins of pride, laziness and gluttony to the sins of Sodom and Gomorrah; God is not denying that the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because of the sin of homosexuality; rather God is saying those commit the sins of pride, laziness and gluttony are just as guilty of sin as those who commit the sin of homosexuality.
In this verse God is not saying rebellion is witchcraft, nor is God saying stubbornness is idolatry. No God is saying rebellion is just as sinful as witchcraft and stubbornness is just as sinful as idolatry.
Thus when God in Ezekiel 16:46 – 50 compares to sins of pride, laziness and gluttony to the sins of Sodom and Gomorrah; God is not denying that the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because of the sin of homosexuality; rather God is saying those commit the sins of pride, laziness and gluttony are just as guilty of sin as those who commit the sin of homosexuality.
John Deacon •
My advice is really simple.
Stand with the marginalized.
Imagine the gay student you are reaching out to be your son, your daughter.
Imagine the persecution and alienation they will experience if their sexual orientation differs from the norm.
Imagine the bullying they'll experience and the exclusion and reproof that will confront them in most churches.
You may be hard pressed to find scriptural verses to validate your standing with them given their lifestyle but then remember how Jesus stood alongside the prostitute, the tax collector, the woman caught in adultery as their defender rather than accuser. He stood with those whom the law required be stoned, but Jesus insisted were to be loved, even if it were to cost him his life.
The excess that is to mark us as Christian ministers is not judgment but mercy, not condemnation but grace, not hatred or bigotry but love. Any minister who lives out that emphasis will be charged with being too soft on sin and taking liberties with God's holiness. It was the unrelenting accusation Jesus faced from the religious and it is the unrelenting accusation those who are determined to love as he did will face from the religious today. It takes courage to stand with the most despised and to share in the insults they endure. It is to live out Romans 15:1-7.
Some of those you love will be rescued from the confusion surrounding their sexual identity. To others you will be the lone voice telling them that regardless, they are God's beloved through Jesus Christ. For it is he who is the defender of the defenseless, the one who when we were, and dare I say still are, sinners - died for us.
Stand with the marginalized.
Imagine the gay student you are reaching out to be your son, your daughter.
Imagine the persecution and alienation they will experience if their sexual orientation differs from the norm.
Imagine the bullying they'll experience and the exclusion and reproof that will confront them in most churches.
You may be hard pressed to find scriptural verses to validate your standing with them given their lifestyle but then remember how Jesus stood alongside the prostitute, the tax collector, the woman caught in adultery as their defender rather than accuser. He stood with those whom the law required be stoned, but Jesus insisted were to be loved, even if it were to cost him his life.
The excess that is to mark us as Christian ministers is not judgment but mercy, not condemnation but grace, not hatred or bigotry but love. Any minister who lives out that emphasis will be charged with being too soft on sin and taking liberties with God's holiness. It was the unrelenting accusation Jesus faced from the religious and it is the unrelenting accusation those who are determined to love as he did will face from the religious today. It takes courage to stand with the most despised and to share in the insults they endure. It is to live out Romans 15:1-7.
Some of those you love will be rescued from the confusion surrounding their sexual identity. To others you will be the lone voice telling them that regardless, they are God's beloved through Jesus Christ. For it is he who is the defender of the defenseless, the one who when we were, and dare I say still are, sinners - died for us.
Dr. John Boyd •
Actually the only Biblical way to express true friendship toward anyone
(or group) that practices sinful activities as a lifestyle is to
lovingly tell them of God's desire to adopt as His eternal children all
who will
'accept His sacrifice for their sins through the blood of Jesus,
agree with God on what constitutes sin,
confess that their sins are not acceptable to holy God,
repent of (turn away from) their sins accepting the Lordship of Jesus,
and follow Him as disciples for the salvation of others.'
Assure them that this is the path to eternal life with Jesus, their Savior and God. I encourage all who would try by 'politically correct' measures to win the lost to salvation, that we follow God's plan by the empowerment of His Holy Spirit in spite of what this fallen world offers as 'socially acceptable' standards. We are no longer of this world. Therefore, let us follow the leadership of our true 'Commander-in-Chief,' the only one who has our eternal interest at heart, the One and only true and living God...Jesus Christ, the author and finisher of our faith! To stay with the Biblical commands of the Lord may seem a bit harsh to a generation that knows little about sacrifice and other eternal concepts. But remember that His ways are higher than ours...His ways lead to eternal life. Our pre-salvation ways are all about serving ourselves and being well-esteemed by others who care nothing about the cross that leads to God.
Although even this posting will no doubt be perceived by some as 'gay-bashing,' I encourage all to remember that Jesus NEVER shied away from calling sin for what it is - separation from God. Do we want people to know Jesus? Let's stop trying to reform the Gospel into something that it is not. Unrepentant sinners will face eternity apart from God unless we tell them about the redemption, salvation, and adoption that He offers through the finished work of Jesus!
'accept His sacrifice for their sins through the blood of Jesus,
agree with God on what constitutes sin,
confess that their sins are not acceptable to holy God,
repent of (turn away from) their sins accepting the Lordship of Jesus,
and follow Him as disciples for the salvation of others.'
Assure them that this is the path to eternal life with Jesus, their Savior and God. I encourage all who would try by 'politically correct' measures to win the lost to salvation, that we follow God's plan by the empowerment of His Holy Spirit in spite of what this fallen world offers as 'socially acceptable' standards. We are no longer of this world. Therefore, let us follow the leadership of our true 'Commander-in-Chief,' the only one who has our eternal interest at heart, the One and only true and living God...Jesus Christ, the author and finisher of our faith! To stay with the Biblical commands of the Lord may seem a bit harsh to a generation that knows little about sacrifice and other eternal concepts. But remember that His ways are higher than ours...His ways lead to eternal life. Our pre-salvation ways are all about serving ourselves and being well-esteemed by others who care nothing about the cross that leads to God.
Although even this posting will no doubt be perceived by some as 'gay-bashing,' I encourage all to remember that Jesus NEVER shied away from calling sin for what it is - separation from God. Do we want people to know Jesus? Let's stop trying to reform the Gospel into something that it is not. Unrepentant sinners will face eternity apart from God unless we tell them about the redemption, salvation, and adoption that He offers through the finished work of Jesus!
MONICKARAJ ARUL PRAGASAM (Global Citizen Concept) •
NO one is a born GAY. Everyone is born SINNER. A person become a gay by
THOUGHT, PURPOSE (WILL) and ACTION, exactly the the same way he can
return to his GOD by his FREE WILL renouncing his way not to remain a
gay but becoming a child of God receiving Christ Jesus as his Saviour
and Lord. God bless, stay blessed and enjoy his status as a child of
God.... God is HOLY, heaven is HOLY, he too can remain holy unto HIM
choice is in one's hand..
Gideon Gaitano •
I believe the sin of homosexuality, just like any sin, is the result of
our fallen nature. God did not create homosexuals just as He did not
create alcoholics, sex maniacs, prostitutes, liars, racists, adulterers
and the list goes on.
There are all these sinful lifestyles because Adam sinned and we inherited his sinful nature and thus we are born in sin. Some suffer as a result of ancestral sins, such as parents who are drugs addicts and pass on their addiction to their children, some parents who have AIDS pass on their viral diseases to their children. Such is I believe the lifestyle of homosexuality. So the sinful lifestyle is expressed in all kinds of dysfunction.
The only way out of the control of sin is to have Jesus Christ indwell a person and fill that person with the Holy Spirit! Than a person can truly experience the freedom of the new nature.
So based on this condition of being born in sin, no homosexuals don't have a choice. They are born into the sinful lifestyle of homosexuality. But that can be reversed through the saving power of Jesus Christ!!
There are all these sinful lifestyles because Adam sinned and we inherited his sinful nature and thus we are born in sin. Some suffer as a result of ancestral sins, such as parents who are drugs addicts and pass on their addiction to their children, some parents who have AIDS pass on their viral diseases to their children. Such is I believe the lifestyle of homosexuality. So the sinful lifestyle is expressed in all kinds of dysfunction.
The only way out of the control of sin is to have Jesus Christ indwell a person and fill that person with the Holy Spirit! Than a person can truly experience the freedom of the new nature.
So based on this condition of being born in sin, no homosexuals don't have a choice. They are born into the sinful lifestyle of homosexuality. But that can be reversed through the saving power of Jesus Christ!!
Ronald Bell •
No one is BORN a homosexual. People do have a choice what they want to
be. Their rearing, upbringing, weighs heavily on the type of person they
become. God created man and woman, he did not create homosexuals.
Vondell Scott •
Science has gotten very smart these days. Now health care professionals
are saying that different moods or emotions can be imparted into a baby
while in their infancy stage. That's why they say that when a Mom breast
feeds she imparts for than nutrients to the baby, but she imparts
Feelings and emotions as well... They even go as far as to say that
depending on who holds the baby, emotions can also be imparted. Lastly
on this point it's scientifically proven than medicine can be
transferred to another party through the skin or pores. This is relevant
to this topic of " Are people born gay"; Born in sin yes, generational
sins passed down, yes, upbringing yes, Lack of godly authority in home,
yes! Born gay, NO!
John Deacon •
Regrettably I think the conversation about how to reach out to the gay
community has devolved into an irretractable debate as to whether
homosexuals are born that way or not. Reminds me of the debate in John 9
about why the blind man Jesus is about to heal is blind. Whatever our
position is on the issue, it is for the glory of God that a man is born
blind or gay.
Think for a minute of the gay couple who remain committed to each other for 30 years, 23 years longer than the average lifespan of a heterosexual married couple in North America.
Over that time they provide for each other, advocate for poor and marginalized people (i.e. immigrants, refugees, disabled war veterans living below the poverty line), and contribute to the good of society in a variety of ways ranging from faithfully paying their taxes to military service to volunteer work in disaster stricken places like Haiti.
Near the end of their 30 years together, one of them is stricken with bone cancer and requires constant care. So the other takes a leave from work, for which prior to the overturning of DOMA means he won't receive support benefits from the government in caring for his partner. And when his partner dies, he doesn't receive the death benefit he would have had his partner been of the opposite sex.
Now evangelicals would agree that none of the above makes him a candidate for heaven, anymore than had he been heterosexual. For heaven is a gift, not earned.
But heaven gives evidence of residing in an individual who provides shelter to the homeless, cares for the poor and who advocates on behalf of the oppressed. (Matthew 25:31-46) Heaven gives evidence of residing in someone who sticks with his sick brother, when he could have turned away. Here is a man who laid down his life for his friend which sounds and looks a lot like 'greater love has no one, than a man who lays down his life for his friends.'
I have been around long enough to meet people whose storyline is a near replica of the one told above. Regardless of whether gay because they were born that way or chose to be gay - it is undeniable there is evidence of the Holy Spirit glorifying God in the lives they've lived. In their kindness to the poor around them, God is honored. (Proverbs 14:31)
So going back to the matter of what our approach should be to the LGBT individuals and communities around us...
Just as we would never think that a good first step in befriending a Muslim is to tell him what he believes is wrong, so too our approach to people who are gay.
Find the things you share in common and build relationships from there.
It may that you never agree on the issue of sexual orientation, but if you are both people of good will, there will be plenty you will have in common.
Most LGBT people I know and work with, are keen advocates for the marginalized. They have deep sensitivities for vulnerable people who because of mental health and/or addiction and/or child trauma issues face incredible hardship in life. Many vulnerable people have been abandoned by the church, especially by that segment of the church wrapped up in the prosperity gospel.
Connect with the LGBT community the way you would any other group of people. Have coffee together, share stories together, advocate together and see what happens.
I guarantee that is love is the motive and driving force, love will be the outcome to the glory of God.
Think for a minute of the gay couple who remain committed to each other for 30 years, 23 years longer than the average lifespan of a heterosexual married couple in North America.
Over that time they provide for each other, advocate for poor and marginalized people (i.e. immigrants, refugees, disabled war veterans living below the poverty line), and contribute to the good of society in a variety of ways ranging from faithfully paying their taxes to military service to volunteer work in disaster stricken places like Haiti.
Near the end of their 30 years together, one of them is stricken with bone cancer and requires constant care. So the other takes a leave from work, for which prior to the overturning of DOMA means he won't receive support benefits from the government in caring for his partner. And when his partner dies, he doesn't receive the death benefit he would have had his partner been of the opposite sex.
Now evangelicals would agree that none of the above makes him a candidate for heaven, anymore than had he been heterosexual. For heaven is a gift, not earned.
But heaven gives evidence of residing in an individual who provides shelter to the homeless, cares for the poor and who advocates on behalf of the oppressed. (Matthew 25:31-46) Heaven gives evidence of residing in someone who sticks with his sick brother, when he could have turned away. Here is a man who laid down his life for his friend which sounds and looks a lot like 'greater love has no one, than a man who lays down his life for his friends.'
I have been around long enough to meet people whose storyline is a near replica of the one told above. Regardless of whether gay because they were born that way or chose to be gay - it is undeniable there is evidence of the Holy Spirit glorifying God in the lives they've lived. In their kindness to the poor around them, God is honored. (Proverbs 14:31)
So going back to the matter of what our approach should be to the LGBT individuals and communities around us...
Just as we would never think that a good first step in befriending a Muslim is to tell him what he believes is wrong, so too our approach to people who are gay.
Find the things you share in common and build relationships from there.
It may that you never agree on the issue of sexual orientation, but if you are both people of good will, there will be plenty you will have in common.
Most LGBT people I know and work with, are keen advocates for the marginalized. They have deep sensitivities for vulnerable people who because of mental health and/or addiction and/or child trauma issues face incredible hardship in life. Many vulnerable people have been abandoned by the church, especially by that segment of the church wrapped up in the prosperity gospel.
Connect with the LGBT community the way you would any other group of people. Have coffee together, share stories together, advocate together and see what happens.
I guarantee that is love is the motive and driving force, love will be the outcome to the glory of God.
MONICKARAJ ARUL PRAGASAM (Global Citizen Concept) •
Prayerfully counsel them in the light of the Scripture. Make them know homosex is sin God hates and abhors.
If they repent and seek forgiveness then they are blessed if not however love you show them is not going to help them come out.
First know what a personality is. Every single soul has the FREE WILL choice to go to heaven. The only WAY is Christ Jesus. Let them choose HIM.
We help them choose Christ Jesus. Rest is in their hands.... God bless,
I do pray for their liberty from the unnatural affection and distorted way of sexual relationship which is not approved in the Bible.
Christians can help them have their mind changed. Let the power of the Holy Spirit convict them as one counsels appropriately,
Let us trust the LORD, He is the GREATEST lover of the entire mankind....
If they repent and seek forgiveness then they are blessed if not however love you show them is not going to help them come out.
First know what a personality is. Every single soul has the FREE WILL choice to go to heaven. The only WAY is Christ Jesus. Let them choose HIM.
We help them choose Christ Jesus. Rest is in their hands.... God bless,
I do pray for their liberty from the unnatural affection and distorted way of sexual relationship which is not approved in the Bible.
Christians can help them have their mind changed. Let the power of the Holy Spirit convict them as one counsels appropriately,
Let us trust the LORD, He is the GREATEST lover of the entire mankind....
Ronald Bell •
John,
You are exactly right about this issue, we are debateing a totally different subject. Although I can't say I am in agreement, I would like to point out what I believe is an issue that is addressed clearly in God's Word. Works will not get you to heaven no matter how many or how grand. You can only get to heaven by FAITH.
You are exactly right about this issue, we are debateing a totally different subject. Although I can't say I am in agreement, I would like to point out what I believe is an issue that is addressed clearly in God's Word. Works will not get you to heaven no matter how many or how grand. You can only get to heaven by FAITH.
Gideon Gaitano •
The debate whether one is born gay or not will be ongoing. But
experience shows us that many men and women have not been taught to be
attracted to the same sex. They just are. Just like many who are
attracted to sinful desires. You don't teach people to lust after
wealth, fame and power. You don't teach people to hate and seek revenge.
We just do. Why, because we are corrupted by sin!
Our sinful nature has so disfigured our sense of normalcy as GOD designed. We are born fallen and dysfunctional. There is no choice in that. We will sin because it is in our nature to sin unless GOD intervenes through salvation.
So homosexuality, is another form of the expression of a nature so controlled by sin and rebellion against GOD. Ask the homosexual if they had a choice. Many will tell you. They didn't. They discovered their attraction to the same sex as their awareness of their sexuality developed.
The only solution for liberation from the sin of homosexuality or lust or addictive behavior or any another sin is through the power of GOD indwelling us and filling us through the HOLY SPIRIT.
Our sinful nature has so disfigured our sense of normalcy as GOD designed. We are born fallen and dysfunctional. There is no choice in that. We will sin because it is in our nature to sin unless GOD intervenes through salvation.
So homosexuality, is another form of the expression of a nature so controlled by sin and rebellion against GOD. Ask the homosexual if they had a choice. Many will tell you. They didn't. They discovered their attraction to the same sex as their awareness of their sexuality developed.
The only solution for liberation from the sin of homosexuality or lust or addictive behavior or any another sin is through the power of GOD indwelling us and filling us through the HOLY SPIRIT.
Dr. John Boyd •
John, you may be referring to the words of Jesus found in the Gospel of
Luke: “If you love those who love you, what benefit is that to you? For
EVEN SINNERS love those who love them. And if you do good to those who
do good to you, what benefit is that to you? For EVEN SINNERS do the
same. And if you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what
credit is that to you? EVEN SINNERS lend to sinners, to get back the
same amount."
Brother, hear my counsel...The wages of sin is death (separation from God). Forgiveness from sin depends upon our acknowledgment of our sin, our brokenness upon conviction, and our repentance (turning from our sin), thus making Jesus our Savior AND Lord.
Jesus told Nicodemus that unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. He was referring to our lives in this world. Without the infusion of the Holy Spirit we can not recognize the things of God - holiness, righteousness, what pleases God, etc. Brother, the only EVIDENCE of heaven in anyone's life is that they walk in the path of heaven...the foot steps of Jesus...with lives that are ordered by His commands and match up with His righteousness yielding fruit for God - the souls of men!
By stating that heaven resides within the acts of those whose lifestyles run contrary to the standards set for believers in the Word of God, you are negating the blood sacrifice of Jesus who died, not so that heaven could reside in those who mock His name and His sacrifice, but so that sinners who come to faith by believing in His ultimate sacrifice for them and His resurrection may reside with Him in heaven.
And your first, best, and only step in dealing with a Muslim or one from any other pagan religion is to share with them the Gospel of Jesus Christ and allow the Holy Spirit to do His work in convincing them of the truth, convicting them of their sins, and drawing them (If I be lifted up) to the One and only true Savior of the world. "How beautiful are the feet of the messengers of the Gospel..."
Brother, hear my counsel...The wages of sin is death (separation from God). Forgiveness from sin depends upon our acknowledgment of our sin, our brokenness upon conviction, and our repentance (turning from our sin), thus making Jesus our Savior AND Lord.
Jesus told Nicodemus that unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. He was referring to our lives in this world. Without the infusion of the Holy Spirit we can not recognize the things of God - holiness, righteousness, what pleases God, etc. Brother, the only EVIDENCE of heaven in anyone's life is that they walk in the path of heaven...the foot steps of Jesus...with lives that are ordered by His commands and match up with His righteousness yielding fruit for God - the souls of men!
By stating that heaven resides within the acts of those whose lifestyles run contrary to the standards set for believers in the Word of God, you are negating the blood sacrifice of Jesus who died, not so that heaven could reside in those who mock His name and His sacrifice, but so that sinners who come to faith by believing in His ultimate sacrifice for them and His resurrection may reside with Him in heaven.
And your first, best, and only step in dealing with a Muslim or one from any other pagan religion is to share with them the Gospel of Jesus Christ and allow the Holy Spirit to do His work in convincing them of the truth, convicting them of their sins, and drawing them (If I be lifted up) to the One and only true Savior of the world. "How beautiful are the feet of the messengers of the Gospel..."
John Deacon •
Moses. Given the expanse of input you've received, I don't know if we helped you as much as you may have hoped.
That said, I have been reflecting on a story that Robert Lupton (a pastor whose ministry was among the poor and whose book 'Theirs is the Kingdom' transformed my life).
He was speaking to the graduating class of an evangelical seminary and began his talk by asking the class what was the most important thing Jesus was asking each of them to do.
The overwhelming response within seconds of Lupton's question was 'to go out and preach the gospel.'
'That's good,' responded Lupton, 'but that is not the very first thing, nor the most important command Jesus asks of you.'
Other answers were ventured, but it was a couple of minutes before someone from the back of the room responded with 'to love God and love your neighbour.'
'Right,' responded Lupton. 'And how many departments do you have at this seminary dedicated to 'evangelism'? he asked.
As it turned out, there were several.
'And how many departments do you have under the heading of 'loving your neighbour'? he continued.
As it turned out, there were none.
'How effective are you going to be in reaching out to people who know nothing of what you believe, if you have learned nothing about how to love your neighbour?' he asked.
If you do the most important thing of loving your neighbour Moses, and particular to your question that started this discussion, your gay neighbour, the matter of how to share the gospel will come as a matter of course.
It is when we start by preaching at our neighbour that we make so little headway. But when we love our neighbour, the trust is slowly gained and established, for them to hear what we have to share.
Make it pivotal to love them, even when they don't respond. And when they don't respond, take the time to ask them why. In hearing their story, which many times is a story of hurt, alienation and misunderstanding, an entry point for the gospel becomes clear.
It is faith that works by love that matters. That is the only way our faith and the communication of our faith works. By love.
That said, I have been reflecting on a story that Robert Lupton (a pastor whose ministry was among the poor and whose book 'Theirs is the Kingdom' transformed my life).
He was speaking to the graduating class of an evangelical seminary and began his talk by asking the class what was the most important thing Jesus was asking each of them to do.
The overwhelming response within seconds of Lupton's question was 'to go out and preach the gospel.'
'That's good,' responded Lupton, 'but that is not the very first thing, nor the most important command Jesus asks of you.'
Other answers were ventured, but it was a couple of minutes before someone from the back of the room responded with 'to love God and love your neighbour.'
'Right,' responded Lupton. 'And how many departments do you have at this seminary dedicated to 'evangelism'? he asked.
As it turned out, there were several.
'And how many departments do you have under the heading of 'loving your neighbour'? he continued.
As it turned out, there were none.
'How effective are you going to be in reaching out to people who know nothing of what you believe, if you have learned nothing about how to love your neighbour?' he asked.
If you do the most important thing of loving your neighbour Moses, and particular to your question that started this discussion, your gay neighbour, the matter of how to share the gospel will come as a matter of course.
It is when we start by preaching at our neighbour that we make so little headway. But when we love our neighbour, the trust is slowly gained and established, for them to hear what we have to share.
Make it pivotal to love them, even when they don't respond. And when they don't respond, take the time to ask them why. In hearing their story, which many times is a story of hurt, alienation and misunderstanding, an entry point for the gospel becomes clear.
It is faith that works by love that matters. That is the only way our faith and the communication of our faith works. By love.
Dr. John Boyd •
There is no such thing as some kind of Biblical dispensation whereby if
you are "taking some time" to develop a relationship with someone before
you share the Gospel with them, and either they die or the Lord
raptures His church out of this world - those with whom you have been
"cultivating" a relationship are automatically saved!!! This kind of
thinking comes from hell. Today is the day of salvation. Our charge is
to love people enough to tell them the truth...that they are sinners
without any hope except that which is offered by the Creator who has
paid the price for the forgiveness of sin through Jesus, God the Son.
Love means never putting off for tomorrow that which we have been commanded by the Lord to do today...because tomorrow may never come! Those ministers who refuse to acknowledge the urgency of the Gospel are wasting souls by trying to play the role of sex-psychologist, hoping that a gay person will somehow become trusting enough to "try" to change. The change that must come is by being born-again by the Spirit of God after being convicted of sin by the Holy Spirit (not by sex counseling) through the sharing of the Gospel message. The Spirit does the convicting. There is no plan "B"! Trying to rewrite the Scriptures to seem more loving and palatable for sinners is the work of Satan's servants who love to make promises that "sound" reasonable, but lead to hell.
As ministers of the Gospel of love and grace, our highest call is to graciously and lovingly plead with sinners to repent...offering them what was offered to us - the love of God in Christ - His redemption, His salvation, His adoption. For whosoever will call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Love means never putting off for tomorrow that which we have been commanded by the Lord to do today...because tomorrow may never come! Those ministers who refuse to acknowledge the urgency of the Gospel are wasting souls by trying to play the role of sex-psychologist, hoping that a gay person will somehow become trusting enough to "try" to change. The change that must come is by being born-again by the Spirit of God after being convicted of sin by the Holy Spirit (not by sex counseling) through the sharing of the Gospel message. The Spirit does the convicting. There is no plan "B"! Trying to rewrite the Scriptures to seem more loving and palatable for sinners is the work of Satan's servants who love to make promises that "sound" reasonable, but lead to hell.
As ministers of the Gospel of love and grace, our highest call is to graciously and lovingly plead with sinners to repent...offering them what was offered to us - the love of God in Christ - His redemption, His salvation, His adoption. For whosoever will call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Phil Smart •
Good words John - that is Truly Biblical.
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