Larry Patrick, THD., Pastor/Founder at Charis Chapel Bible Church
Dear John Deacon,
Throughout history, man has forever found ways to disagree with God's revealed truth. Seeing that women as pastors disagrees with so much of both the Old and the New Testament, this trend is closer to what the Spirit reveals about the last days:
* 2 Peter 2:2, And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. 3, And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
Woman has lusted to be the head of man since creation, this lust in these last days has lead to "the way of truth shall be evil spoken of". I have many qualified women as co-laborers with me in my church as well as co-researchers with me in the seminary. My latest book to be published soon could not have been finished if it were not for research done by one of the female graduates who has gotten her TH.M. Yet, with all their qualifications, not one over the past 26 years would attempt to be a pastor.
This movement has destroyed the true value of women ministry, as well as distracted many gifted women from allowing themselves to be use by the Spirit into using their talents to be something they were not born to be, a man (way of Korah). I will not become part of some social movement that destroys the veracity of God's Word.
I do not have an opinion on women as pastors, I have the revealed Word of God that they can't be pastors. Your opinion is non Biblical, but of course you are allowed to have it. I can only pray that you will send for a copy of my book, and after reading it you may become a as great a proponent against this movement as you now are one for it.
In His Matchless Grace
Dr. Patrick
John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited
Dear Dr. Patrick:
I appreciate the thoroughness of your response and I'm impressed you have a book to back it up.
But I think the heart of our disagreement has more to do with how we see God moving in history, rather my taking up the pernicious ways of 2 Peter 2:2.
Pernicious ways can mean two things - licentiousness and legalism. We can abuse the scripture to justify our taking undue license with others (i.e. sexual, physical, mental or authoritative abuse) or by insisting on the letter of the law to the exclusion of the working of God's Spirit.
Both were in evidence in the New Testament church - licentiousness in the Corinthian church and legalism in the Jerusalem church described in Acts 21:20 - "Brother, you see how many thousands of Jews have become believers, and all of them keep the Law passionately" - who were equally as impassioned to murder the Apostle Paul.
How does God move in history? Is He static? Does he hold to certain precepts and methodologies, or does He change?
Is He married to the past or are his ways new every morning? We know Him to be the unchanging One, the same yesterday, today and forever - and yet we know the way he revealed himself to Moses is different or at least hidden (veiled) compared to the God revealed in Christ.
Is he still destroying the armies of Sennacherib, or with Christ insisting that love is the better way? Was he with those who marched on Washington with Martin Luther King 50 years ago as he was with those who marched around Jericho 3500 years ago?
Is he still opening the ground beneath the feet of those who opposed Moses, or is he in his kindness now exercising a greater patience to give his adversaries time to repent?
I say 'yes' to all that and 'yes' to a thousand liberations more, all owing their root, cause, articulation and end in the triumph of Jesus Christ, the one who brings 'justice to victory', validating that God's love wins in far more ways than we can ever know.
Is He daunted by the progress of invention, computers, civil rights legislation, the splitting of the atom or is He at the heart of it all? Is He the great keeper of the status quo or at the heart of every person's cry for freedom, regardless of how reckless we are to pursue it?
Is He the founder of a monolith, all members uniformly the same, or He is the Author of life in all of its diversity, where not one of us can elude the power of his grace and love? Is his church a fixed institution like commandments on stone or a living organism where everyone's a peculiar gift belonging to one another?
I believe God is calling women to a fuller place in both the world and the church today because both the world and the church desperately need it. Just as God 2000 years ago called the Gentiles to a fuller place in both the world and the church.
It is God who sets captives free, who undoes the constraints we bind one another with religious and otherwise, because in Christ 'there is neither male nor female, Jew nor Gentile, slave nor free for we are all one in Christ Jesus.'
That oneness is one of the great works of God, on the cross, in the church, realized and still to be realized in every generation until his return.
Larry Patrick, THD, Pastor/Founder at Charis Chapel Bible Church
Dear John Deacon
You are correct, we have a different understanding of God. I do not see God as having to adjust His Word to the times and changes of man. I don't see His immutability being challenged by our desire to do something that He has already address from Genesis to Revelation. He established the relationship between man and woman, first at creation and second after the fall. He outlined detailed requirements for His priest in both the Old and the New testament. It was Him not man who stated "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law" (1Co 14:34). It was also He who prophesied in Zach 5:11 that He would send a great evil to the land of Shinar "To build it an house in the land of Shinar: and it shall be established, and set there upon her own base" (The way of Korah).
But most important of all, I will proclaim as David did "thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name." (Psa. 138:2). If the God I serve went against His own Word, He would not be God. You serve a God that agrees with your desire for equality over your desire for truth. I serve a God who has declared to me, that the time will come when they will not hold to sound doctrine. We live in the last days, I believe you would agree to that. One of the main characteristics of this time is the increase of "belly" walkers, those who serve there emotions and desires rather than follow truth.
So again and finally, you are correct, I don't see God changing to adjust His ways to us, but I do see Him poring out His wrath as He did on Sodom when we refuse to adjust our ways to Him.
John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited
"Look! I’m doing a new thing;
now it sprouts up; don’t you recognize it?
I’m making a way in the desert,
paths in the wilderness." Isaiah 43:19 CEB
We serve a God who is not static, who is ever doing 'a new thing.'
As well as we can discern God's ways looking back, we have no idea of what he will do next.
We are finite, he is infinite. All the biblical study in the world up to the time of John the Baptist, could have never predicted a messiah that would look or behave or teach like Jesus. The best bible scholars of his time missed the mark entirely and if they did, so too can we regarding the 'new thing' God is doing in our time.
Imagine for a moment the incredible struggle the first disciples went through after Peter's encounter with Cornelius. Even the Lord they had followed for 3 years and whose teaching they were to carry forward, spoke exclusively of coming 'for the lost sheep of Israel.'
But the disciples with Peter's vision were being challenged to extend the borders beyond Israel to include the Gentiles.
It is an easy thing for us to rationalize after the fact, but at the time without any NT canon, the biblical verses denying the Gentiles as fellow heirs of God's kingdom were far more numerous than for their acceptance.
Think of the people in John 8 rightly expecting they are about to witness a scripturally sanctioned stoning of an adulterer, only to find that Jesus had a different way of dealing with adulterers.
Yes - there are verses in scripture to validate the belief that never a pastor should a woman be. But they are no more binding than the verses that at one time restricted the Gentiles from being numbered among God's people, nor were they so binding to prevent women from assuming ministerial roles in the 1st generation of the church as evident in the list of women ministers Paul acknowledges in Romans 16 and Philippians 4.
It is my belief that women fulfilling the role of pastor is one more example of God's doing a 'new thing', a testament to God's making man - both male and female - in His image and likeness and the power of his redemption.
Larry Patrick, THD., Pastor/Founder at Charis Chapel Bible Church
Mr. Deacon,
Again you are using scripture for your own purposes. God never did or does a new thing that He doesn't announce first. The birth of Christ was the second most prophesied event in the Bible, only the Kingdom of God has been more prophesied. The men of His day were not true scholars, or they would have known Isa 53:1-10, especially verse 10 ......... when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
They didn't know the prophesy because the truth of God's Word was not as important to them as the power and position they were trying to keep. Even the verse you try to use was an announcement so those who have had their ears "digged" can understand. He does nothing He has not announced, and He announces all that He will do.
Your insistence on trying to put a new thing in God's revealed plan as well as His purpose exposes the purpose of your perversion of the truth. All that I posted today is irrefutable truth of God's Word. It was presented in such a way as to be non-approachable by differing interpretations. The plain simplicity of its truth proved from both the Old Testament and the New Testament that a woman cannot be a pastor and that God has established her as a helpmate to man, cursed since the fall. Instead of accepting this truth, you re-direct your presentation to try and say you serve a different God. You portray Him as a God that does not have omniscience, but must change His plan at the whims of the decant society we now live in. GOD DOES NOT CHANGE, He does no new thing that He has not prophesied and He does not change the relationship of man and woman, for the relationship we have is a prophecy of the second greatest mystery in the Bible ....... the mystery of "Christ and the Church".
Eph 5:31, For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32, This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church
In His Matchless Grace
Dr. Patrick
John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited
Dear Larry:
I am not questioning God's omniscience, I am questioning ours - both yours and mine.
You're being too hard on the scholars in Jesus who didn't recognize him. As you write:
"The men of His day were not true scholars, or they would have known Isa 53:1-10, especially verse 10 ......... when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand."
Nobody understood the truth of Isaiah 53, nor how Jesus fulfilled it until after the fact. Paul himself insists it was hidden...
"We talk about God’s wisdom, which has been hidden as a secret. God determined this wisdom in advance, before time began, for our glory. It is a wisdom that none of the present-day rulers have understood, because if they did understand it, they would never have crucified the Lord of glory! But this is precisely what is written: God has prepared things for those who love him that no eye has seen, or ear has heard, or that haven’t crossed the mind of any human being." 1 Corinthians 2:7-9
I agree with you the activity of God throughout history is consistent with who He is and I agree with you that looking back we can see the One who was, is and evermore will be.
Where I disagree with you is our ability to know his ways going forward. We know he's coming again. Beyond that, we see through a glass darkly. His ways are not our ways, nor His ways in the world we live in easily perceived.
At the end of time we will be able to look at all He's done and see the utter consistency of his character and actions.
Where we stumble as did the scholars in Jesus day is what is He up to now and what He will be up to tomorrow.
The best we can say is: 'Lord I'm yours, use me in whatever way you choose.'
If it is a woman who in praying that prayer feels lead into ministry as a pastor, priest, evangelist, and/or apostle, is our only biblical response to insist she's being lead by some other spirit than the Spirit of Christ?
I have met too many Spirit filled women in ministry to insist that someone other than the Holy Spirit who lead them there.
Larry you might be right.
But then again, you could be obstructing the work of the Holy Spirit in denying ministry to women, which both of us would agree is not just wrong, but blasphemy.
Larry Patrick, THD. Pastor/Founder at Charis Chapel Bible Church
John,
You forget who we are. Before Pentecost, no one had the indwelling Holy Spirit as a teacher and a Guide,and please do not quote to me what David prayed about not taking the Holy Spirit from me. We both know that was not the indwelling seal. Nor were any Old Testament believers born again before Pentecost. Being born of His Word, we are Theosapien, and new species of life that never existed before Pentecost. That being said, I can partially agree with you as to what the Pharisees and Sadducee did not know. But what was hidden from them is made plain to us. The complete cannon of Scripture has been given, and with it comes our ability through the illumination of the Spirit, coupled with the consistent intake of His Word, to layer precepts for a deeper understanding of the same, Why do you think Paul said "as also saith the law" in 1 Co. 14:34. The law spoken of was not one law, but many that differentiated men from women. Were we taught today the true reason for a woman offering of a "sin offering" once a month, the precept layering with the rest of the law concerning women would keep anyone from this last age apostasy of women Pastors.
It is not my intention to offend, but it is time that we speak openly of what is happening. You disagree with me on our ability to see what He is going to do, yet He has prophesied more on the subject of the setting up of His kingdom than any other subject in the Bible. It has even been giving unto us to know of the "things in heaven" which we are commanded to "lust after", Col.3:2, Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. You can't lust after what you don't know, so this verse means we are suppose to KNOW of what the eternal kingdom will consist of. Also note, "things" is a plural word so He is not talking about a "spiritual state" as is the teaching of so many. But speaking plainly, we can know what He will do, by what He has done. Our Father establishes patterns throughout His creation, patterns that teach His children, indwelt by His Spirit, His ways.
The existence of these patterns is even part of the judgement of the Gentiles. Romans 1: 20, For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
These patterns are also in all that He does, His very Justice and Righteousness are based on His patterns established in the Law. Therefore, I cannot agree with you that He is doing a new thing today, because it completely violates all the established patterns He has shown His children in His word.
Finally, doing "good works" is no demonstration of following the Spirit. The fruit of the Spirit is " love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance". The first of these is love, and our love is based first on our love for our Father. However, the Bible teaches us what love of God is: 1 John 1:6, And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it. Loving God is following after the truth, not following what you "feel". IF WHAT A PERSON FEELS, GOES CONTRARY TO HIS WORD ...... well nothing else needs to be said. When ever I have had this discussion in the class room, It always ends up with personal experience. But following after what you feel and personal experience is akin to what Paul said in Phil 3:18, (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19, Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.). That is why I call them "belly walkers", the sad thing is, what they should be "shameful" of, they actually glory in. For this I do not blame the woman, but the Pastor, who supports them.
John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited
Dear Larry:
You are getting more convoluted with every entry. You need to get out of the classroom more.
You seem to waiver between the two testaments to justify what you believe. David doesn't have the spirit and yet a woman is beneath a man because it was she who deceived by the serpent.
If men are theosapiens, are women theosapiens too? And if they are, doesn't that mean they no longer have to answer to the curse they were put under with Adam's sin?
Are we 'theosapiens? Hardly.
I agree that his kingdom within us is the evidence of the new creation but the designation as our being theo anything will have to wait until the redemption of our bodies.
And you think that 'doing good works' not a demonstration of the Holy Spirit at work?
"You are saved by God’s grace because of your faith. This salvation is God’s gift. It’s not something you possessed. It’s not something you did that you can be proud of. Instead, we are God’s accomplishment, created in Christ Jesus to do good things. God planned for these good things to be the way that we live our lives." Ephesians 2:8-10
We are newly created in Christ to do good things! If we are not doing good things we have every reason to question whether we are 'in the faith.' We are not saved by good works but once saved we are newly created to do good works. By doing so, it becomes as evident as light and salt, that we are God's accomplishment.
The evidence that Christ's kingdom is here is the poor being blessed, the hurting being shown mercy, wars being thwarted by peacemakers, and those seeking justice being persecuted. His light shines not in theosapiens, but in the fully human and vulnerable made radiant by God's spirit within.
My apologies for repeating myself, but neither you or I know what God is going to do tomorrow. Oh sure - in broad strokes - we know it will be the extension of his kingdom, that dark forces will be overthrown, that love will prevail and His Spirit will glorify the Son. But whether a new Francis of Assisi will emerge, or another Martin Luther King, whether Africa becomes Christianity's brightest shining light, or Putin undergoes a Nebuchadnezzer like transformation to become servant and not lord - none of this you or I know!
All we know is that God triumphs. And in his triumph, both men and women will rejoice - both having their share in his victory, both having done their part.
And if the immediate aftermath of Christ's resurrection in any way foreshadows who will be the first to give thanks when Christ comes again, it will be the women!
For it was the women who were the first witnesses and messengers of his triumph over death. If Christ could entrust them with the news then, there is no reason he can't entrust them with the news now.
Larry Patrick, THD. Pastor/Founder at Charis Chapel Bible Church
John,
You are right again, I do use both Testaments, but all of God's Word is "..... quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. " Also, "2Ti 3:16, All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: " For you to run to that old haven of using both Testaments as though only the New Testament was valid, is unworthy of you. The precepts of the Old Testaments are better understood with the light and illumination provided by the New. However, all of God's Word is one Word. Although the condemnation of the law is nailed to the cross, the principles taught in the Law explain to us all of His ways.
Your comment is completely wrong, as a matter of fact, the opposite is true. "f men are theosapiens, are women theosapiens too? And if they are, doesn't that mean they no longer have to answer to the curse they were put under with Adam's sin?"
Yes, both women and men are Theosapiens, and as such, both are held to a higher degree of responsibility than those who are not. To whom much is given, much is expected. God doesn't excuse us for what we desire, if those desires are against His declared truth. Your entire presentation appeals to the feelings of the reader, sounding the drums of the socially correct position like waving a flag. However, remember the waring of Jude about the last days, " 11, Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
12, These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
13, Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever."
But you do not believe we are the "children of God" a "new species", even though scripture declares we are " 1Jo 3:2, Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." We have been born twice, literally, as also declared by Christ as being necessary to enter into the Kingdom and as declared by the Spirit in " 1Pe 1:23, Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." What do I call a person who denies what Christ has accomplished on the cross. When you deny what He has made us you are in affect denying the purpose of His death on the cross. What, do you not know that we are only "waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body" ? In your attempt to be popular, you are warring against God. By saying we are not Theosapien, you call yourself a "bastard", born only once. Theosapien = Sons of God, or Godmen/Godman, not as male or female, but as a "new creation".
Since it is obvious that no matter what is presented to you, you will deny it by using some colloquial saying, I am posting a link to my book entitled "The Prophetic Significance of Women Pastors".
Finally, you are again correct, we do not know what God is going to do tomorrow, but we do know what he has prophesied He will do, and what condition of the world and the Church will be just prior to His return. The "perilous times" of 2 Tim., are not perilous because of physical danger, but social danger, the danger that comes from those who are disguised as sheep so they can "creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts," .
John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited
Larry:
We will have to agree to disagree.
I'm not settled on being a theosapien, because Christ made so much of being a homosapien ('son of man') that I'm reluctant to give it up until my body undergoes resurrection. I resist teaching that makes much of dividing the body from the soul, only because that's a line only God knows.
Meanwhile while redeemed, born anew by His Spirit, I yet experience hunger and thirst in the hope of connecting with the one 'who was hungry and you gave me something to eat.'
I will look at your booklet.
In return I have attached the link to the well known evangelist and sociologist Tony Campolo's take on women preachers:
http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Christianity/2006/10/Let-The-Women-Preach.aspx
Thank you for engaging this long with me in this issue. It has helped to solidify a position I was somewhat lukewarm about until now.
Going forward, I am committed to encouraging women to preach.
Larry Patrick, THD. Pastor/Founder at Charis Chapel Bible Church
John,
I can accept your statement of agreeing to disagree, even though it saddens me.
One word that may help you in your acceptance of who you are. Christ was called( "son of man") because he was the only man born as Adam was created. But he was always the (son of God). By us being born twice, we have become as He was while we yet live, with a new spirit that has (Eternal Life) as the life in it. That is what makes us Theosapien, a "new creation". Finally, I know you can determine the tense of the statement found in this verse. It is not future, as "will be" but present, as "are now".
2Co 5:17, Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new
Thank you for your link, but I have read his and many other authors on the subject while researching my brief pamphlet. It is specifically written and directed to the scripture text used by all those who claim this folly.
I know you believe you are right, but again I am truly saddened by your decision to continue encouraging women to be Pastors. Please note I did not say preach. a word much misused today. Christ commanded all of us to preach the Gospel to the unsaved, but that is not being a Pastor. Preaching the Gospel is to be done to all the unsaved, not in the church but in the world. BTW, preaching is normally a one to one activity for reaching the soul of a unsaved person. Our use of the word today is not the use in the Bible. Preaching the Gospel, is not the same as being a Pastor.
Phi 1:18, What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.
John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited
Dear Larry:
I did read through your link and it really doesn't help. Your theology regarding women is weighted too heavily by the Old Testament and seemingly unaffected by Christ's redemption of women in the New.
Do appreciate the distinction you make between preachers and pastors, but why apply a gender clause to pastors and not to preachers? It's gnat straining and I wonder if you don't know that already...
I thought Tony Campolo was being too harsh when he said at the Cooperative Baptist's Fellowship Conference in 2003:
"The Bible says, 'neglect not the gift that is in you,' and when women are gifted with the gift of preaching, anybody who frustrates that gift is an instrument of the devil."
But maybe he wasn't.
Your booklet blames women pastors for apostasy in the church.
That's a hard sell, even for most fundamentalists, let alone evangelicals.
I place the blame elsewhere.
Greed might be a good place to start.
The most pressing issue facing Christianity, just happens to be the most pressing issue facing the world. The growing gap between rich and poor and the lengths we go to as Christians to maintain the status quo rather than challenge - as both the Baptist and Jesus did - the tyranny of self-interest and greed, is the apostasy we've succumbed to. It's that 'love of money' thing that keeps tripping us up, the way it did the Pharisees!
http://www.homelessguide.com/2014/01/whats-wrong-with-christianity-look-no.html
Larry Patrick, THD., Pastor/Founder at Charis Chapel Bible Church
For my last post on this subject:
To John Deacon;
Your zeal is without knowledge, for you believe Christ freed women from the curse, but the curse is not removed until Rev 22:3, And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: The scriptures in the New Testament that I quoted would not have been written if woman was not the Body and man the Head. It is obvious you only skimmed the pamphlet, for if you had read it all you would not have said:
"Your booklet blames women pastors for apostasy in the church."
Women are only the way of Korah, which is one of 3 ways of the end time apostasy. Also, in my last post I closed saying I do not blame the woman, I blame the pastors. Further, it is obvious you do not understand the difference between preaching the Gospel, which is witnessing to the unsaved, and Pastoring the Church which is edifying the "body of Christ".
Finally, you say I am evil, and yet it is you who neglect the pattern of God, established in Gen. 2, and not removed until Rev. 22. God never goes against His Word, he would never allow women to be gifted as Pastors as he did not allow Korah to be a Priest after the order of Aaron. Even though the same argument is being used now as it was used then "we are all holy, all the people (then) sons (now) of God are holy and equal" it is an argument that He prophesied would be used., .
I guess now you will add to my evil that I presume to know who God will give a gift to. To that I say no, but I do know, that according to His own word, a woman cannot be a pastor.
In His Matchless Grace
Dr. Patrick
John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited
We clearly are divided into two camps here, with very little give at either end.
Most debates of this nature usually end up this way.
But I do want to put in a plug for feminism. Generally speaking the word in these settings has negative connotations, which I think is unmerited and reflective more of male fundamentalist paranoia than anything divine.
God through history has had to use people other than 'His people' to bring his people into line. There are many instances of this, which Jesus brings home in his inaugural sermon in Nazareth. (see Luke 4)
For more contemporary instances of God's having to use those outside the church to bring home issues God is passionate about, here are at least 3:
1) the environment
2) the non-violent movement
3) gender equality
All three of these issues are biblical, deeply biblical, but in our day, it has been people other than 'bible people' whom God has had to use to remind the church of their centrality.
Genesis 2 God entrusts to both man and woman the care of his creation. It is fundamental to his purposes in making 'male and female in his image.' And yet, when is the last time you heard a preacher preach on our divinely appointed environmental responsibility to care for the earth God has made. This message until recently hasn't been coming from the church, so God has raised voices outside the church to provoke us into fulfilling this divine purpose. And yet do we thank them or do we scorn them for being nature lovers rather than lovers of God? We do the latter and look like fools in doing so as well as dishonour God.
It took a Hindu, Mahatma Gandhi to remind Christians that 'turning the other cheek' and 'loving one's enemies' weren't Eastern teachings, but those of Jesus, which Gandhi chose not to abandon even though most Christians had. When Bonhoeffer, Mandela and Martin Luther King were delving into the 'soul force' resistance of love and not hate, they had to look to Gandhi rather than to the Christian church for their example! What a betrayal of the leading example of militant non-violence - Christ himself!
It took the feminist movement to dislodge society from archaic notions of gender inequality. In its early stages it was lead by a number of prominent evangelical women, but eventually the ugly face of male dominance and misogyny pushed its spokespersons out of the church and into the world, where it has since flourished.
The inequality the movement focused on: the right to vote, the right to equal pay, the right to pursue one's gifting are as true to the gospel as is the freeing of slaves and yet, the backlash, especially from conservative Christians, has been so militant, so archaic and so un-Christ-like, many women have left the church to find their place in the world.
This is so sad, when one realizes the incredible place of equality women had in the life of Jesus - not only his mother, but those who supported him through his ministry and those who stood by him at the cross when all of his males disciples had fled.
When I hear men harp about how women can't be pastors, it sounds pharisaical, it sounds paranoid, it sounds dated, it sounds like God is only interested in turning back the clock, when in truth He is calling us forward.
Time to move forward. Even if the provocateur is some agency outside the church.
Craig Cassatt, Church planting
John: The issue of women as pastors has nothing to do with gender equality; it has everything to do with obeying God's Word. Common sense dictates that in one sense men and women are equal, and in another sense there is a difference. When dealing with positions or structure( home, church, etc.,) there is a difference in Gods eyes( according to the Bible, when dealing with the way God looks at each one of us as children, then He looks at us equally and shows no partiality.
BrunoVAN de VLIET, Teacher at ETHIM Theological College
Gender equality is part and parcel of the bible and its message. Nowhere do we find the Lord saying women are 2nd class people. Not just the Lord God also the Lord Jesus never mentioned anything like that. It is a wrong historical interpretation by theologian and a misunderstanding of the text of the Bible as such. A very good book about is written by Dora and George Winston.
Raymond Kughen, Minister at Immanuel Baptish Church
Let the Bible speak and say what it clearly says and that will clear it up, unless there is another reason why people don't want to obey scripture.
John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited
Craig:
I think the issue of women as pastors has everything to do with gender equality.
The passage you refer to which initiated this discussion had to do with a pastor being 'the husband of one wife' and you infer from that the reverse isn't true - i.e. that a pastor can't be 'the wife of one husband.'
But the passage makes no mention of the unmarried. Do we deduce using your logic that someone who isn't 'the husband of one wife' can't be a pastor? Of course not - otherwise it would rule out every Catholic priest from being a pastor.
There were women in ministry in Jesus' time, in the time of early church (see Romans 16 etc) as there are in our generation.
Put it plainly, would you receive communion from a woman priest? If not, then you don't really believe in gender equality as the Bible pronounces it in Galatians 3:28.
I say communion, because I know from our Catholics brethren, this too would be an offence to most. According to their doctrine and tradition only men can be priests.
But if as Bruno and others have argued, that in Christ we share in the priesthood of all believers, then it is betrayal of NT theology to insert a gender clause.
Not only because in Christ, there is neither male nor female, slave nor free - but because the host we share, 'the broken body and the shed blood of our Lord', is the basis of our equality. As one hymn writer put it: Christ is 'both priest and victim in the Great Eucharistic Feast.'
Thus it makes no difference whether it is a woman or a man who presides over communion, because the one who is really priest as well as sacrifice, is Christ himself. All this bickering about whether women can be priests, pastors, evangelists, apostles is in fact a slight to the One who is our Only Priest.
As Jesus himself taught: “But you shouldn’t be called Rabbi, because you have one teacher, and all of you are brothers and sisters. Don’t call anybody on earth your father, because you have one Father, who is heavenly. Don’t be called teacher, because Christ is your one teacher." Matthew 23: 8-10
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