Question posed by Michael Nimz, Anabaptist Outreach Worker
What does grace mean to you? Once we have grace, what place does the law hold in our lives and in our churches? - continued...
LOMANI UILOU, Minister of Religion (SPD) Limited
We are only contempt and kill by the law because of NOT OBEYING THE LAW - For those who obey God's law they are not contempt, and this will apparently and finally be on the day of JUDGEMENT. Romans 1:18 "For the wrath of God is revealed … against ALL UNGODLINESS AND WICKEDNESS OF MEN WHO BY THEIR WICKEDNESS SUBRESS THE TRUTH". 2:6-13 "For He will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who DOES EVIL … but glory and honour and peace for every one who DOES GOOD … For God shows no partiality. ALL WHO HAVE SINNED WITHOUT THE LAW WILL ALSO BE PERISH WITHOUT THE LAW, AND ALL WHO HAVE SINNED UNDER THE LAW WILL BE JUDGED BY THE LAW…
… FOR IT IS NOT THE HEARERS OF THE LAW WHO ARE RIGHTEOUS BEFORE GOD, BUT THE DOERS OF THE LAW WHO ARE JUSTIFIED"
Looks like Paul is contradicting himself and his writings! NO! HE IS NOT! Some just don't understand his writing - especially miss the context.
Romans 7 is one of my favourite passages. How could you skip earlier verses: 1 - 3 "The law has dominion over a man as long as he lives" - While we are alive we are obliged to obey the law. For one reason: NOT TO SAVE US but because we are obliged to and we will be judge (on JUDGEMENT DAY base on this law = 10 Commandments).
What does it mean "dead to the law through the body of Christ" - it does not mean that the law is finished. It means "COMMITMENT TO OBEY THE LAW NO MATTER WHAT THE COST" - that is why the same author says in Romans 12:1 "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that YOU OFFER YOUR BODIES A LIVING SACRIFICE, HOLY, ACCEPTABLE TO GOD, which is your reasonable service."
However, we seem to focus on Paul's writing and have ignored the Gospels and the other epistles. 1 John 1:8-9 "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
What do we have to CONFESS if there is no sin, which means no breaking of the law? 2:4 "He who says 'I know him' but DISOBEYS HIS COMMANDMENTS IS A LIAR, and the TRUTH IS NOT IN HIM."
It is important that we take into account and consideration all passages where LAW (10 COMMANDMENTS) and GRACE is mentioned so that we won't have the entire Scripture contradicting itself. May I suggest, if Paul's writing is not understood just focus on Jesus' entire teachings, it is very simple to understand. Above all, we have salvation only from Jesus and not any other. Stick with Jesus because misunderstanding of Paul's writing could be a painful consequent; worse of all is one teaches the wrong message - one would be responsible for the other person's blood (being taught with the wrong message).
Mbuye Otiti, Advocacy Minister at Visionary Believers in Christ Network International
Grace is the Divine Provision from God's Throne of Mercy and Truth Which is in Christ Jesus the Word Lord; by Which Jesus separates man from his Sin, its works and life; as He enjoins him/her unto Himself to Partake together with them, of His Divine Works of Grace and Truth to make them Become the sons of God according to John 1:-10-14, Romans 8:1-19. The Law is Spiritual; and It is Ordained of God in His Divine Grace; to make man realize and see his Sin in him; and then turn to Christ Jesus the Lamb; and identify with Him according to His Redemptive Works which He accomplished in Him on His Cross before the world was; which He Manifested Israel when He Came and Became Flesh.
John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited
Lomani:
I love it when my best defence is provided by my opponent. Your reference to Romans 7:1-3 is the perfect summary of what I am trying to say.
"Now, dear brothers and sisters—you who are familiar with the law—don’t you know that the law applies only while a person is living? For example, when a woman marries, the law binds her to her husband as long as he is alive. But if he dies, the laws of marriage no longer apply to her. So while her husband is alive, she would be committing adultery if she married another man. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law and does not commit adultery when she remarries.
So, my dear brothers and sisters, this is the point: You died to the power of the law when you died with Christ. And now you are united with the one who was raised from the dead. As a result, we can produce a harvest of good deeds for God." Romans 7:1-4 NLT
Taking exactly what those verses say - before Christ, I was married to the law. I was bound to it for as long as I was alive. But with Christ, I died to the law when I died in Christ.
And now that I am dead to the law, who am I now married to?
I am married to the one who was raised from the dead and as a result, I can - in the community of others who are also married to Christ - produce a harvest of good deeds for God.
Put another way - when I wake up each day, from whom do I receive my marching orders? From the law of Moses or from the Spirit of Christ? Obviously the latter.
So what purpose has the Law? The law is for the lawless.
It is also an added measure that calls me to account if in my claim to be following Christ I am doing less than loving my neighbour.
If I claim to obey Christ and am unfaithful to my wife, then I am breach of the commandment about adultery. But before committing adultery as the law of Moses framed it, I would have been in breach of Christ's command of having looked at another woman with lust in my heart.
In short, if I am living in disobedience to 'the law of life in the Spirit', Christ himself will be the first to oppose me in advance of the Law. It is the breach in the experience of his love for me that will be the first sign of my disobedience. My experience of being cut off from his love will do more to bring me 'into line' than the law ever could. Hence the law came with Moses BUT grace and truth came with Jesus Christ. I rely solely on the latter. And if obedient to Christ, I fulfill the former.
"May the words of my mouth
and the meditation of my heart
be pleasing to you,
O Lord, my rock and my redeemer." Psalm 19:14
When we love Jesus and seek to be obedient to him daily, we begin to experience his pleasure, 'to taste and see that the Lord is good.'
It is only in that experience - in community with others - that we grow in both love and obedience. The Law is incapable of producing either love or obedience. How can it? It is only a schoolmaster whose one eternal lesson is 'all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.' Thus the Law leads us to Christ. Once with Christ, we need no other, we obey no other and we are only answerable to him, not only on the Last Day but daily in fellowship with those who walk with him.
Robert Dallmann, Director at ChristLife, Inc.
1 John 3:4 - "...for sin is the transgression of the law."
Romans 6:15 - "What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? GOD FORBID."
John Swain, Volunteer Worker at Bethany Community Church Harpenden
No wonder the church is in the state it's in when we have ministers of religion, and christian directors plucking verses out which are out of context, and which are being presented through their personal legalistic filter. It is wrong to handle scripture by promoting doctrine from selected, isolated verses. Scripture must be seen as a whole, with scripture interpreting itself. Take the above comments from Robert Dallmann as an example. Is Paul in Romans 6:15 promoting law keeping as Mr Dallmann seems to be implying. NO. Not if you read it in context and as a whole with other NT teaching. He is saying that it would seem that grace gives licence to do anything we want to because we are no longer under the law. God forbid, says Paul. The law makes sin come alive, the strength of sin is the law, we are dead to sin and alive to Christ, therefore we ought to be displaying Christ like life, not sin. What should be coming out of our lives is the fruit that the Spirit within us produces, which is summed up in Jesus' commandment, which supersedes all the OT commandments which is to Love God and others as Christ has loved us. !
1 John 3:4 is correct. Sin is a transgression of the law. But read the context. We are dead to sin. Jesus came to take away sin. As believers we have had sin taken away, therefore the law has no hold over us or power to condemn. We are the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus, we are sons of God. Marvel at the love God has bestowed on us, that we are the sons of God, righteous before God and whatever we do, nothing can separate us from this love and our position in Him. Our quickened spirits are sinless, our soul's desire is to fall in line with our spirit, and, like Paul, we discipline our body to come in line with our soul and spirit. We don't let the sin nature in our bodies take control, but as 1 John 3:3 says we purify ourselves.
To teach that we have been saved and given the Holy Spirit just so that we can try to keep the law better is a poor second rate gospel as far as I am concerned, and is not what I read in the scripture.
Before Moses God did not impute men's sins to them, during the time of the law and the prophets God did impute men's sins to them, now those who are in Christ do not have their sins imputed to them. We are dead to sin, therefore dead to the law, we are alive in Christ therefore we are righteous, in right standing before a Holy God.
Robert Dallmann, Director at ChristLife, Inc.
I always love it when I quote the Bible, with NO COMMENTARY... and someone says...
IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT!
So John Swain, you advocate allowing Christians to sin?
Here is another one for you to REJECT...
______
The Apostle Paul said...
Acts 24:14 - (AMP) - "But this I confess to you, however, that in accordance with the Way [of the Lord], which they call a [heretical, division-producing] sect, I worship (serve) the God of our fathers, STILL PERSUADED OF THE TRUTH OF AND BELIEVING IN AND PLACING FULL CONFIDENCE IN EVERYTHING LAID DOWN IN THE LAW [OF MOSES] OR WRITTEN IN THE PROPHETS;"
Of course, the Apostle Paul agrees with Jesus, Who said...
Matthew 5:18 - "For verily I say unto you, TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS, ONE JOT OR ONE TITTLE SHALL IN NO WISE PASS from the law, TILL ALL BE FULFILLED."
Last time I checked, heaven and earth were still here, so according to Jesus NONE of the Law has passed away.
Anthony Verderame, Speaker ♦ Counselor ♦ Mind Coach ♦ Helping individuals & churches experience lives that thrive!
My heart breaks for His Body when I read threads like this. Living/walking in love IS living/walking BY HIS LIFE!
Charles King, Management Consultant & Christian Minister
Does anyone but me see a direct relationship to the following verses?
Deu 7:9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;
Deu 10:12 And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul,
Jos 1:7 Only be thou strong and very courageous, that thou mayest observe to do according to all the law, which Moses my servant commanded thee: turn not from it to the right hand or to the left, that thou mayest prosper whithersoever thou goest.
Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
Jhn 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
It appears Jesus is saying the same thing that the Old Testament writers were saying!
1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Based on 1 John 2:4 taken out of context, there may be a lot of liars!
Robert Dallmann, Director at ChristLife, Inc.
AMEN Charles...
Hebrews 7:12 - "For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law."
There HAS been a change in the Law. The change in the Law has to do with motivation and enablement!
OT Motivation - to earn something from God, salvation, favor, blessings, etc.
NT Motivation - LOVE for God and His people
OT Ability - SELF - it was impossible to obey
NT Ability - CHRIST IN US - it is possible to obey
____________
Galatians 2:20 - "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but CHRIST LIVETH IN ME: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."
So the question is a simple one...
Jesus lives in and through me, is Jesus a LAW BREAKER?
Is it conceivable that Jesus after the resurrection now allows for violating the Law?
John Swain, Volunteer Worker at Bethany Community Church Harpenden
Robert Dallmann:-
I think you read my threads like you must read the Bible. I have not and never will advocate sin. Neither can you justify keeping the law in this age of grace. It is not a case of motivation and ability. It is a case that we now stand in a totally different relationship with God than anyone ever did in the OT. No one in the OT was born of the Spirit. We are. You need to stop using OT law scriptures to justify NT law keeping. If you read my last thread carefully you will see that I advocate righteousness and purity not sin. If you have got to keep the law to please God you have misunderstood who you are in God and the utterly fantastic relationship he has bought us into, through Jesus' sacrificial death and resurrection.
Robert Dallmann, Director at ChristLife, Inc.
John Swain,
You said quote: "If you read my last thread carefully you will see that I advocate righteousness and purity not sin."
My response: Since you seem to have a problem with the Bible's definition. How do you define "sin"?
I like the Bible definition myself!
1 John 3:4 - "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."
Robert Dallmann, Director at ChristLife, Inc.
John Swain said quote: "It is not a case of motivation and ability."
My response: Do you really believe that Jesus living in and through you by the Holy Spirit does NOT change your ability to obey? Really?
_____
Romans 6:15 - "What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid."
John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited
John Swain:
I find your entries inspiring. As one who for years struggled, as did Martin Luther, with trying to live by the law, I was an abysmal failure at it. I had come to Christ but had found in trying to obey the law that I was bond to a servitude which had me persuaded that to be a Christian was anything but free.
My route to finding freedom in Christ was a sequitous one helped in large part by reading Martin Luther's 'Introduction to Galatians' - where among other things, he introduces that incredible scriptural phrase: 'the just shall live by faith.'
It hit me as it had him. I was seeking to be just by obeying the law rather than accepting that I am justified: by faith in Jesus Christ. To quote the great Charles Wesley line 'my chains fell off, my heart set free, I rose, went forth and followed Thee.' In following Jesus I am free, I am free, I am free! Utmost in that freedom, was the freedom to obey Him in a way I never could while trying to obey the law.
The irony of grace, of living by the Spirit rather than by the letter of the law - is that even though I am held to a higher standard than the 10 Commandments; and to the more disciplined walk of 'sharing in his sufferings and in the power of his resurrection', I have truly discovered the way of Christ is freedom, whereas to live by the law was death.
Robert and Charles are right in the sense that the law remains 'until heaven and earth pass away' but what they forget - and I can so easily forget - is that our relationship to the law changed the moment we died in Christ.
We were once married to the law, but thank God in Christ we were baptized into his death and raised to newness of life, where we are no longer married to the law, but joined to Christ himself.
In being Christ's, we are now called to greater things than the law could have ever taken us. In a word these greater things are to love our neighbour as Christ loves our neighbour, and to rejoice in the liberty of being sons and daughters of the most High - solely on account of his grace.
Robert Dallmann, Director at ChristLife, Inc.
Hi John Deacon,
You said quote: "Robert and Charles are right in the sense that the law remains 'until heaven and earth pass away' but what they forget - and I can so easily forget - is that our relationship to the law changed the moment we died in Christ."
My response: I did not forget this fact, I actually quoted the verse a few posts ago. Here is my post from above...
"Hebrews 7:12 - "For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law."
There HAS been a change in the Law. The change in the Law has to do with motivation and enablement!
OT Motivation - to earn something from God, salvation, favor, blessings, etc.
NT Motivation - LOVE for God and His people
OT Ability - SELF - it was impossible to obey
NT Ability - CHRIST IN US - it is possible to obey"
________________
I agree that we are called to greater things than the Law, and this is where the motivation and empowering comes into play.
OT Law says don't murder...
NT Grace says don't even be unjustly angry...
OT Law says don't commit adultery...
NT Grace says don't even look at a woman with lust...
Grace has higher requirements than the Law!
Rev Peter Sekyi, Founder/Senior Pastor at Word Foundation Centre International Ministry
Hi Robert,
Do you remember that Paul said this in defence of the accusation by his
fellow Jews that he was preaching things that were not in line with Jewish
beliefs? So the apostle as a natural descendant of Benjamin told the court
he had followed everything the required of him as a Jew. That he believed
in the law as much as they did. If you would recollect there was another
occasion when he had gone to Jerusalem with some fellow believers and for
the sake of the Pharisees and Scribes some of the believers in Christ
including Paul had to go through purification to please the Jews. Acts
21:15-28; Acts 15:1-29
Again, Jesus spoke to the Jews who had a hard time believing in him as the
Messiah. Their rejection of Jesus meant there strict adherence to the law
and the prophets though that could not save any of them. So in effect,
Jesus said to them if you guys had rejected me for the law then know that
every law would have to be fulfilled. The prophetic significance of the
five books of Moses that had not been fulfilled yet would be and what
remains had all been fulfilled by Jesus Christ. By implication, Jesus said
to them whoever lives by the law shall be judged by the law nothing shall
be overlooked. Take a serious note of the following: Romans 3:19-20, 21-31
then let me know the basis on which both Noah and Abraham were justified
since they lived before the law.
Bless you my brother.
Rev Peter Sekyi
John Swain, Volunteer Worker at Bethany Community Church Harpenden
Robert Dullmann.
Let me ask you a question. Do you keep all the law. Have you ever looked on a woman and had lust in your heart? because if you have kept all the law to that level since becoming a Christian you are an exceptional man. If not then you are condemned by the law.
The law continues until heaven and earth pass away, but not for righteous men.(1Tim1:9)
I have died with Christ and been raised in newness of life, I have not been raised to the old life of trying to fulfill the law. Read Hebrews. Jesus did not come from the levitical tribe. He was not a priest of the Old Law. He was of the line of Melek Tzedek (King of Righteousnes) He bought a different sacrifice that instituted a different law, the law of Loving as Christ has loved us. As I said it is not about motivation and ability. Its about condemnation under the old law and No condemnation under the new one. The OT law was to show you that you could never, ever, ever be good enough The OT law made sin come alive in us and bring its consequence which is death. NT shows that Jesus Christ has fulfilled the righteous requirements of the law, we have died to sin, and Jesus is now able to impute his righteousness to us.
1 Tim 1:5 shows that the end of the command ( the word end used here in the Greek means the conclusion of an act or state) is charity (the word for charity used here is agape) Love, out of a pure heart and a good conscience and of un-hypocritical faith. That's what true grace brings. Not a licence to sin, but a desire, out of a pure heart, to live Holy as He is Holy.
Now read 1Tim 1:6-7 and tell me whether you come into that category or not. If you are teaching that we need to keep the law , after we have been saved in order for God righteousness to be imparted to us, then I believe you do come into that category.
I say these things with a strong conviction that I am dividing God's word correctly, because I have seen Christians who have tried to live according to the law feel inadequate and condemned. However, when they have understood the truth of who they are and what they have in Christ they become empowered to boldly share their faith, they have confidence in God and his word, their desire to sin falls away and they move into new levels of operating in the Spirits gifting. Romans 8 truely becomes a reality for them.
Robert Dallmann, Director at ChristLife, Inc.
Hi Rev Peter Sekyi
You said quote: "Do you remember that Paul said this in defence of the accusation by his
fellow Jews that he was preaching things that were not in line with Jewish
beliefs?"
My response: So you are saying the Paul was lying to save his skin?
Why did Paul quote the Law of Moses to the Gentile believers in Corinth in 1 Corinthians 9:8-9?
1 Corinthians 9:8-9 - "Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also? (9) For it is written in the LAW OF MOSES, thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
Seems odd that Paul would be teaching a useless Law of Moses to primarily Gentile believers.
____________
As for Jesus, in just one chapter before, He quoted the OT to satan in self defense against His temptations in the wilderness. Jesus said...
Matthew 4:4 - "But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, BUT BY EVERY WORD that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."
____________
For me, I am sticking with Jesus... He said we should LIVE BY EVERY WORD from God, and that works for me.
LOMANI UILOU, Minister of Religion (SPD) Limited
Brothers in Christ - we don't keep the law in order to come to Christ (Bible says: "The law" (10 Commandments! Not the ceremonial law) "points us to Christ". We Come to Christ and through the power of and from Christ, we are enabled to obey the law. One last thing I like to remind us is: the ceremonial law (which includes all rituals in the sanctuary were only shadows, they were pointing forward to Jesus - these are the laws that were vanished and done away with) is not the same as the decalogue, 10 Commandments, - which does not change, not finished (Jesus said: "I did not come to abolish"), it "is good … holy … righteous … perfect … and stands forever." Why would one hate, don't like, reject, and get rid of something so "good … righteous … perfect … and holy". One could only have to be mad to do such thing. Apparently, the 10 Commandments has Godly qualities and I believe they are qualities that God likes us to have.
Robert Dallmann, Director at ChristLife, Inc.
Hi John Swain,
You said quote: "Robert Dullmann"
My response: Nice abuse of my last name. However, I am not the "dull" one here. I quote the Word of God and you do mental gymnastics to discredit what it clearly says.
______________
You said quote: "Let me ask you a question. Do you keep all the law. Have you ever looked on a woman and had lust in your heart? because if you have kept all the law to that level since becoming a Christian you are an exceptional man. If not then you are condemned by the law."
My response: You should ACTUALLY READ what I have posted (TWICE now) about the "change" in the Law. Please scroll up and find my post.
______________
You said quote: "The law continues until heaven and earth pass away, but not for righteous men.(1Tim1:9)"
My response: I agree. Paul says it this way in Galatians...
Galatians 5:18 - "But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law."
Does God allow you to VIOLATE His holy, just, and good Law at those times when you are NOT led by the Spirit?
Or would you have us to believe that you are ALWAYS led by the Spirit?
______________
You said quote: "I have died with Christ and been raised in newness of life, I have not been raised to the old life of trying to fulfill the law."
My response: AMEN! So Jesus living in and through you, is Jesus in you a LAW BREAKER? Does He break the Law through you?
______________
You said quote: "Read Hebrews. Jesus did not come from the levitical tribe. He was not a priest of the Old Law. He was of the line of Melek Tzedek (King of Righteousnes)"
My response: LOL, I have written a book about Melchisedec. It is an attribute-by-attribute character study, comparing Jesus and Melchisedec.
______________
You said quote: "He bought a different sacrifice that instituted a different law, the law of Loving as Christ has loved us. As I said it is not about motivation and ability."
My response: Seriously???? You believe that you are NOT any more enabled with the Holy Spirit living in you????
WOW! That is pitifully sad!
______________
You said quote: "Now read 1Tim 1:6-7 and tell me whether you come into that category or not."
My response: This is an easy question... VERSE 8
1 Timothy 1:8 - "But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;"
Jesus living in me will NEVER LEAD ME TO VIOLATE GOD'S LAW!
______________
You said quote: "If you are teaching that we need to keep the law , after we have been saved in order for God righteousness to be imparted to us, then I believe you do come into that category."
My response: I teach that the Holy Spirit in me will NEVER LEAD ME TO VIOLATE GOD'S LAW... NEVER!
______________
You said quote: "I say these things with a strong conviction that I am dividing God's word correctly, because I have seen Christians who have tried to live according to the law feel inadequate and condemned."
My response: I am strongly convinced of this...
CHRIST IN ME IS NOT A LAW BREAKER!
Most people who proclaim the battle cry "we are not under the Law" are proclaiming a licentiousness.
Here is what the Bible says about the grace of God and lawlessness! It does NOT get much STRONGER than this!
1.Jude 1:4 - "For certain men have crept in stealthily [gaining entrance secretly by a side door]. Their doom was predicted long ago, ungodly (impious, profane) persons WHO PERVERT THE GRACE (the spiritual blessing and favor) OF OUR GOD INTO LAWLESSNESS and wantonness and immorality, and disown and deny our sole Master and Lord, Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One)."
Charles King, Management Consultant & Christian Minister
I am not sure why we are so hung up on the law versus grace, they are two sides to same coin. If no law then there is no need grace. The law does the same thing after salvation as it does before. It points us to grace (Jesus). We need to confess and repent of any sin and every we commit. Maybe why so many resist the Law is they do not want to serve anything!
2Ti 3:15 -17 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. [16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
How about verse 17 above and how it seems to agree to Ep 2:8-10.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast. [10]For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
How about all of us examining our own hearts and see if we like to leave of verse 10 as we preach the gospel as if it is only Ep 2:8-9 and say that any works is of the law and not grace!
LOMANI UILOU, Minister of Religion (SPD) Limited
I am very surprise to have noticed that most of my comments have been deleted. Looks like the person who had deleted them don't like the Biblical Truth that is stated in them - does not like others to read them otherwise his false teachings and unbiblical could be understood by those who are searching for the Biblical Truth… If you don't like don't touch it. Don't hide the truth because it will be bad not only for you but for those you hide it from them. May God bless you as you teach your false and unbiblical message.
John Swain, Volunteer Worker at Bethany Community Church Harpenden
Robert Dallmann
I would like to publicly apologize for the incorrect spelling of you name in my last comment. I did not intend to abuse your name, neither did I seek to disparage you in any way. It was a genuine typing error on my part. I did not set out to belittle you or defame your name in any way. For the offence that I have caused you I most humbly apologize.
Michael Nimz, Anabaptist Network Outreach Worker
Dear Lomani, your previous comments are still on this thread. They are just hidden because of the length of the this thread.
Please keep up the good work, everyone. I am really enjoying this. It is understood that according the people of Israel in the 1st century that obeying the Law brought about salvation. Doing what was instructed by the Law helped one to earn salvation. We also have stated in so many different ways in this thread that with Jesus, grace gives us salvation. Grace, the gift of forgiveness and the help of Holy Spirit allows us to start to do good. With all of this being said, can the Law, instead of being used to define sin and death, be a tool for us to love our neighbour, to forgive and to be gracious to others, inside and outside of the faith? If we see the Law as a means to live out the example that Jesus showed us, how does that impact our understanding of Law and Grace?
Robert Dallmann, Director at ChristLife, Inc.
Hi John Swain,
Apology accepted. Thank you.
Robert Dallmann, Director at ChristLife, Inc.
Hi Michael Nimz,
To me it simply boils down to...
* Is Jesus Christ a Law Breaker? (No - Hebrews 4:15)
* Does Jesus live in and through me? (Yes - Galatians 2:20)
* If so, will He break the Law through me? (No - 1 John 3:4)
* Is there an expectation that true believers be obedient? (Yes - 1 John 3:7)
Bruno VAN de VLIET, National director of Every Home for Christ
Robert. not all logical issues are biblical, and in this case I think you are wrong. Christ is the fulfilment of the Law, so the law is over, He can't break the Law in you, that is something you do, don't blame the Lord for things people do. Jesus gave His Life to fulfill the Law, so please a bit more respect for our Lord.
Robert Dallmann, Director at ChristLife, Inc.
Hi Bruno,
According to Jesus, the Law is NOT over... heaven and earth are still here; therefore, Jesus says NOT ONE jot or tittle has passed away.
Matthew 5:18 - "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."
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You said quote: "He can't break the Law in you, that is something you do, don't blame the Lord for things people do. Jesus gave His Life to fulfill the Law, so please a bit more respect for our Lord."
My response: Please, take the time to carefully read my post. You have misunderstood what I said. You make my point EXACTLY.
If Jesus lives in us, and He obeys the Law, then we are expected to obey because of Him living through us.
If you say God does NOT expect us to keep the Law, then it is YOU who is disrespectful of Jesus, not I.
God still expects us to obey, "Thou shalt not murder, covet, steal, lie, etc."
Simon Zelikman, at Emmanuel's Doorpost
Michael, and all,
Your ............
" We also have stated in so many different ways in this thread that with Jesus, grace gives us salvation. Grace, the gift of forgiveness and the help of Holy Spirit allows us to start to do good.""
Grace, does not "give" anything, it is not an entity onto itself, just as the Law is not a some thing, because it is many things, many laws, some Christ destroyed and others He did not.
It is Jesus's Grace and Law, He is the Word/Commandment, and it is His Grace, it is He who gives Grace/Forgiveness, and we would not know what to seek forgiveness for if it was not for His Law, and God's Law was taught to men by God from Adam on, and I believe way before that, but that is another subject, and we know that the Law will be forever, because it is written in our hearts.
God bless
John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited
Michael asks:
"Can the Law, instead of being used to define sin and death, be a tool for us to love our neighbour, to forgive and to be gracious to others, inside and outside of the faith? If we see the Law as a means to live out the example that Jesus showed us, how does that impact our understanding of Law and Grace?"
Great question.
For me, no. I don't see the Law as a means to live out the example Jesus showed us.
I suppose the law works in the sense it tells me what I shouldn't be doing - i.e. not worshipping false idols, not killing others, not committing adultery, not coveting what another has etc. etc.
Frankly speaking - I am just not inspired to follow Jesus by a whole bunch of 'do nots.'
I find them de-motivating, they 'kill me', trap me in the mire of my own inadequacy, paralyzed from doing any good at all.
What inspires me to follow Jesus is the expanse of what he asks us, in Paul's terminology - his continual 'Yes' to the promise of his Spirit working in us.
I find the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5-7) and Luke Chapters 6 & 12 the inspiration for a lifetime of lifetimes!
I find the high water marks Jesus set in his own life and asks us to replicate of 'becoming poor that others might be rich', 'turning the other cheek to those who strike you', 'selling everything to provide for the poor,' 'taking up one's cross', 'loving the stranger and one's enemies', going out as sheep among wolves and peacemakers in the midst of violence utterly captivating.
None of those things are asked of us by the Law, but Jesus does. In this Jesus is the great YES to all that God asks of us - YES not only by his example, and YES not only by his matchless words and commands but YES in his enabling us to say YES to all he asks of us!
Two of the bright lights in the 20th Century - one Christian and the other Hindu - found their inspiration to turn the other cheek, to love their enemies and to be peacemakers in their time not from the Law of Moses, nor from the dictates of their own religion and culture, but from words of Jesus. They said YES to words they knew would mark them as unique to their generation. It is to God's glory that He gave them the strength to do what Jesus commanded despite their foibles and short-comings, and even in Gandhi's case, a very different theology.
My sense of the hurting world that surrounds us is we don't have time to bicker anymore. Christ isn't awaiting for theological uniformity nor for even a common understanding among us about the relative merits of Law and Grace.
What he wants from us is our YES to being empowered by his Spirit to serve others, most especially those who have less than we do - less income, less opportunity, less ability, less faith, less education, less friends, less community, less love, less peace, less resource, and less hope - and in relationship with them find life, freedom, faith and fearlessness in Christ.
LOMANI UILOU, Minister of Religion (SPD) Limited
John - the law was, is, and will never be a tool. All that it does is tell us what is not right to do. It is the "flesh" that makes you not desire to obey God's law and the law does not kill you - it is the consequence of disobeying the law that kills ("wages of sin is death"). The law was never meant to "save" or to "kill" anyone. It is with our own effort that fails us to observe the law. It is the power of and from Christ that enables us to observe the law.
One other thing I'm concern with is that you seems to eradicate the law and on the other hand vindicate the law by exposing all the "good works" you are doing (save by good deeds). I just wish that we won't be too busy doing good to others ("love your neighbour") and have forgotten God ("Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind") which is the most important.
Keep on doing the good works (God loves it) but don't forget God's side - to obey him.
John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited
Thanks Lomani for your encouragement.
I am one of those people who believe that in loving one's neighbour one learns to love God and vice-versa.
In sharing some of the insights of this group with one of my homeless friends, Lloyd Mangal, he said: 'I never liked the 10 Commandments. I just like the two Jesus gave us: to love God and love one another. I can handle those two, which if I remember correctly, is all we're supposed to do!"
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