Grace and Law - Part 3

from the Global Pastors Network


John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited

Given there seems to be a divide between those who still want to live the law and those delighted to be free of the law to follow Jesus to proclaim and live out his grace... 
The question I'm ruminating about is: 
'What would the church look like were we to live according to his grace?' 

Two thoughts provoke this reflection, one from 2 Corinthians 8:9 
"For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sake he became poor, so that you through his poverty might become rich." 
and the other from a statement made recently by Pope Francis: 
"I prefer a church which is bruised, hurting, and dirty because it has been out on the streets rather than a church which is unhealthy from being confirmed and from clinging to its own security." 

I think the two complement each other - that when the church mirrors the grace of her Lord she becomes poor for the sake of people she serves and ministers to. 

I think it also explains why we as Christians are so tempted to cling to the law, even though it can do no more than condemn us. 
Somehow it's safer when we can say 'I am not committing adultery, I am not coveting another's property, I am obeying the Sabbath" - than to say, I am following Jesus in his fellowship with the hurting, the alienated, the imprisoned, the homeless, the guilty, the law-breakers, those caught in the sex trade, those whom the world deems as 'worthless, no-good, welfare bums - i.e. the ones Jesus refers to as 'the least of these my brethren'... 

Thinking of the rich young ruler's response to Jesus 'all these (the laws of Moses) I have obeyed since I was young' and the Pharisee's prayer 'I thank God that I am not like other men' reinforces our natural (i.e. carnal) and religious response when asked to answer for our obedience to God. 

But the better prayer is the publican's prayer 'Lord have mercy' - a prayer that doesn't change no matter how mature we become in the faith. If anything, judging by Paul's late in life confession that 'Christ Jesus came to die for sinners, of whom I am the worst" (note present tense of his confession!), we can't be surprised that the edict of 'sinner' remains no matter how obedient we are. 
'Lord have mercy' is the prayer of someone delivered from the law, who finds mercy and grace regardless - which is ever the freedom we are meant to experience in Christ, which is to spill over from our lives to affect every sinner we meet.

Oliver John, Author of the new book, Tithing - the financial disaster of Christians? http://alphawolfpublishing.com/religion/

Hi Arthur, please note the question mark (?) on the title: Tithing - the financial disaster of Christians? 

Christians will have to make that decision themselves.

Oliver John, Author of the new book, Tithing - the financial disaster of Christians? http://alphawolfpublishing.com/religion/

Thank you Samuel Patterson, for taking time to provide those verses, which can easily be used to support the tithing argument - that tithing is a burden and bondage to Christians, which should not be the case at a time of GRACE. 

I am not sure why your comments did not appear on this thread. Please try and re-post it, so that others can benefit from the readings: 

Acts 15:1-11, 

[__ Note,some Jewish brethren stressing "the deeds of the law" as a requirement for eternal salvation regarding people who had already received Christ as their Lord and Savior... 

1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren,and said, EXCEPT ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, YE CANNOT BE SAVED. 
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Acts 15:22-24, 

22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren:------------------------------ 

Acts 15: 28 - 30, 

28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost,and to us,to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things.............................................. 

Galatians 5:3, "For I testify again to every man that is circumcised,that he is a debtor to do the whole law.............................

Oliver John, Author of the new book, Tithing - the financial disaster of Christians? http://alphawolfpublishing.com/religion/

The debate or discussion presents an opportunity for us to continue to learn from each other. I'm glad to be part of it. I hope other members of this group feel the same.

LOMANI UILOU, Minister of Religion (SPD) Limited

You are wrong John - the law that the "rich young ruler" mentioned was part of the 10 Commandments NOT MOSES'S LAW as you stated. 

Looks like there you have mixed up Moses' Law (known as Ceremonial Law) with the Decalogue (10 Commandments). May be that's why you misunderstand some of our brothers' commends. We are talking about the 10 Commandments which you mixed it with the Ceremonial Law (the one that is finished).

LOMANI UILOU, Minister of Religion (SPD) Limited

Bruno - I would kindly say again that you have misunderstood the context of these verses. 

The same Law that the apostle Paul named "the law of sin" is the same Law he named "the law of the spirit". It is the consequence of our choice to OBEY or DISOBEY THE LAW (10 COMMANDMENTS! NOT "CEREMONIAL LAW") that brings LIFE and DEATH. 

If you believe (you said) "the law is not for the Christian … only for the Jews" then why don't you preach that "worshipping idols or anything else and not God" … "adultery" … "stealing" … etc… is good. 

Christians should preach and live what they believe in. I wish you the best if you preach and teach that it is good to practice what stated above.

Robert Dallmann, Director at ChristLife, Inc.

I have no desire to earn righteousness through obedience to the Law... that is IMPOSSIBLE! My righteousness comes from the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. 

My position is that, it is not I who lives but Jesus lives through me (via the Holy Spirit, Gal. 2:20).

My problem is with the notion that Jesus living in me will lead me to be a LAW BREAKER. If Jesus lives through me and He is not going to violate the Law through me... will I (Christ in me) now lead me to break the Law? GOD FORBID! 

Anyone who thinks they are being led by the Holy Spirit to violate the Law is seriously wrong.

Oliver John, Author of the new book, Tithing - the financial disaster of Christians? http://alphawolfpublishing.com/religion/

Hi LOMANI UILOU, do we therefore take it that the tithing law belongs to the ceremonial laws, hence, is no longer needed in our churches? 

I ask this question because I am not a priest.

Oliver John, Author of the new book, Tithing - the financial disaster of Christians? http://alphawolfpublishing.com/religion/

This is Evangelist Samuel Patterson's post in full (as 2 separate documents): 

Acts 15:1-11, 

[__ Note,some Jewish brethren stressing "the deeds of the law" as a requirement for eternal salvation regarding people who had already received Christ as their Lord and Savior... 

1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren,and said, EXCEPT ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, YE CANNOT BE SAVED. 
____ 
[__ However,note Paul and Barnabas' reaction to such a notion in verse two.... 

2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question. 
____ 
[__The matter brought before the church, and the apostles and elders in Jerusalem... 

4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them. 

5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was NEEDFUL to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. 
____ 
[___The apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter ... 

6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. 
____ 
[___ After much disputing Peter reminded them of how God saved the Gentiles by their faith in the word of the gospel without the deeds of the law 

7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 

8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 

9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 

10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 

11 But we believe that THROUGH THE GRACE of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. 
____________________ 
____ 
[___ The issue is forever settled within this bible text ... note, Then it pleased the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas ... with letters by them after this manner, saying,
Like (1) Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 5 hours ago Evangelist Samuel P. likes this
 Oliver John
Oliver
Oliver John
Author of the new book, Tithing - the financial disaster of Christians? http://alphawolfpublishing.com/religion/

This is Evangelist Samuel Patterson's post in full (as 2 separate documents): contd.

Acts 15:22-24,

1. Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren:

1. And THEY WROTE LETTERS by them after this manner;The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.

1. Forasmuch as we have heard,that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words,subverting your souls, saying,Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law:to whom we gave no such commandment.

__________________
____
[___ Likewise, the Holy Ghost agreeing ...

Acts 15: 28 - 30,

1. For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost,and to us,to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols,and from blood,and from things strangled,and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well.Fare ye well.30 So when they were dismissed,they came to Antioch:and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle:31 Which when they had read,they rejoiced for the consolation.

_________________________

Galatians 5:3, "For I testify again to every man that is circumcised,that he is a debtor to do the whole law.4 Christ is become of no effect unto you,whosoever of you are justified by the law;ye are fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith."
By Evangelist Samuel Patterson

Simon Zelikman, at Emmanuel's Doorpost

Robert, 
Your............ 
""Anyone who thinks they are being led by the Holy Spirit to violate the Law is seriously wrong. """ 

I believe it is you who is seriously wrong, you are not Christ even if you think He lives in you, and you do not live every minute of every day by the Holy Spirit, and if you say and think you do, you are mistaken, and in great need of His Atonement! 

See if this His scripture helps you see the truth by His Holy Spirit, because if you say you don't sin, or that you will never sin again, then you are a ........................... 

Heb 2: 7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: 
:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. 
:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. 
:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 

Heb 12: 1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 
:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. 
:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. 
:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. 
:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: 
:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 
:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 
:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. 

1 Cor 2: 3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. 

2 Cor 7: 8 For though I made you sorry with a letter, I do not repent, though I did repent: for I perceive that the same epistle hath made you sorry, though it were but for a season. 
:9 Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing. 
:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. 

Eph 6: 5 Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ; 
:6 Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart; ............. 

Ph'l 2: 12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 

His Grace was not cheep for Him, and it is Not cheep or automatic for us, and He does Not automatically give it to those who think, or teach, it is cheep, and I believe the Word confirms this.

John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited

Dear Lomani: 
The distinctions you keep trying to introduce between ‘the law of Moses’, the ‘Decalogue’ or Ten Commandments, and ‘ceremonial law’ are not distinctions the New Testament makes. And if it did, it doesn’t negate the repeated contention by several who have contributed to this discussion that it is ‘the law’ regardless of whether ceremonial or Ten Commandments that Paul repeatedly insists that we are ‘no longer under.’ 
One proof of this is Romans 7:7-12 
‘What shall we say then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” But sin seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. 
For apart from the law, sin was dead…but when the commandment came SIN SPRANG TO LIFE AND I DIED. 
I found that the very commandment that as intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment deceived me and through the commandment put me to death…' from Romans 7:7-12 

So for those who make a distinction between ceremonial, moral and 10 Commandments law, which of the 3 is Paul referring to here? The latter, the 10th of the 10 Commandments. 
I can’t say it anymore emphatically than Paul does - when we try to live by the 10 Commandments sin springs to life and the commandments which were intended to ‘bring life actually bring 'death’ instead. 
No wonder Paul at the end of this chapter in despair cries out: ‘What a wretched man I am! Who can rescue me from this body that is subject to death? Thanks be to God who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!…

Simon Zelikman, at Emmanuel's Doorpost

Dear John Deacon, 

God's Law is never bad or death, it is flesh men who disobey that are. 

When a man proudly thinks and proclaims himself so righteous and good, while standing in solidarity with a party and all promoters of abortion, Gay rights, or no weapons rights, and so many other deceptions by a certain party and ideology in todays world of deception, and all this in the name of love and supposed common good; That man is ether dead to God, or he is correct and justified by that same Law, to believe and teach as he does. 
The only way we can make any kind of correct judgment of right or wrong is by the Law of God, and Christ did Not change any of the Law, because even the Law He did destroy He "rebuild", the ceremonial Law of the earthly Temple and its priesthood is now replaced and rebuild by Him in heaven, it is now His priesthood, Temple, and His Atoning Blood! 

The only way we know for certain, that those men who promote abortion, and other deceptions of this world as God's truth; Or if they just chose to stand in solidarity with a party that does; The only way we know these men Dead to God; Is by God's Law, and it is because God's Law, is the only Way we know this for a Fact, which is a very, very, good thing! 

There is a Great BIG difference between deception/death, and Grace/Truth by God's Law!

John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited

Dear Simon: 
Huh? 

Dear Lomani - part 2 
You are right to express your concern that our freedom from the law not be an excuse for licentiousness - just as any American who loves her freedom would be alarmed by someone who abuses that freedom to promote hatred against minorities. Freedom comes with responsibility. 
Christian freedom is first and foremost the freedom to do what is right. It comes with discipline and if that discipline is not to be 'under the law' what is it? 
It is the discipline of being 'under grace' - of living a life which reflects the grace and truth of Jesus working in and through our lives - a discipline which requires more of us than the law, which is more costly, demanding not only our best but our all - heart, soul, body, mind and spirit! 
But it is the love affair that makes it possible. 
Had someone held marriage out to me as a series of laws I would have to obey, I would failed miserably. 
But when in God's goodness a woman came into my life that literally took my breath away, marriage was no longer a series of obligations to be met, it was an all-out love affair which made the matter of faithfulness and sacrifice a slam-dunk affair. I was in love, how could I behave otherwise? 
So too when Jesus found me - what had become onerous to me in trying to obey the law, suddenly became my delight. 
But it was a delight not reflected in tablets of stone but in the pleasure of a Lord who transforms us not by nagging us into glory, but in the revelation of himself. 
It is when we see him as he really is that we come running into his arms, determined to do everything we can to please him.