Oliver John Author of the new book, Tithing - the financial disaster of Christians? http://alphawolfpublishing.com/religion
As we reflect on tithing today, let's remember to pray for the weak, the poor, the widow, the orphan and the foreigner amongst us, ensuring that they're not further exploited. For, "He (She)...
My book is not just about tithing alone, but covers also financial and moral lessons. When you read my book, you also read about my experience with false preachers, whose purposes for setting up their private churches were hardly to save souls, but rather to squeeze out as much money from their members as possible. This they did through all forms of manipulations in the book - using both marketing and psychological tools to create fear and false hope among Christians.
This is not another tithing book you must have read. That's why I keep on encouraging people to read it, if they can. I think at a low price of $0.99 (ebook), many pastors can afford it without any tithing support. It is also available as a paperbook. This is the link, if you're interested: http://alphawolfpublishing.com/tithing-the-financial-disaster-of-christians-ebook/
Hi Oliver John
If we cannot REJECT Jesus prophesied in Malachi chapter 3...then we cannot REJECT the principles of tithing prophesied in Malachi chapter 3 (within verses of each other)
This is eisegetical Bible interpretation, and it is HYPOCRISY!
There is ONLY ONE reason to REJECT tithing and NOT REJECT Jesus, and that is to support an unsupportable position of ANTI-GIVING.
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Question: Why does your book about NT giving NOT detail any examples of giving in the NT?
Answer: Because you could not support an ANTI-GIVING agenda if you did!
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Question: Why does your book about NT giving NOT mention that FACT that Paul quotes the Law of Moses in defense of his dissertation about PAID ministry?
Answer: Because you could not support an ANTI-GIVING agenda if you did!
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Question: Why does your book about NT giving NOT include the FACT that there is not any examples of God leading people to do less than the pitiful minimums of the Law?
Answer: Because you could not support an ANTI-GIVING agenda if you did!
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BOTTOM LINE: Greedy ANTI-GIVERS love books like yours. You help them justify themselves in their NON-GIVING, in CONTRADICTION to the Word of God.
2 Timothy 4:3 - "For the time will come when THEY WILL NOT ENDURE SOUND DOCTRINE; but AFTER THEIR OWN LUSTS shall they HEAP to themselves TEACHERS, having ITCHING EARS;"
Hmmmm... the early church was led by the Holy Spirit to sell homes and property (WAY BEYOND the minimum of the Law)... AND NO CHRISTIAN SUFFERED LACK!
Today, Christians are taught to give as they purpose in their hearts... almost no one even tithes (let alone FAR ABOVE that, as the Holy Spirit leads)... MANY CHRISTIANS SUFFER LACK!
I will continue to STAND with the WORD OF GOD! (Not with the ANTI-GIVERS)
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Acts 4:34 - (NASB) - "For there was NOT A NEEDY PERSON among them, for all who were owners of land or houses would sell them and bring the proceeds of the sales"
Sadly, the greed in the church today, has left MANY Christians in abject poverty and dire need.
Because of these "ear tickling" teachers, we can NO LONGER SAY of our brethren...
There is NOT A NEEDY PERSON among us.
Really VERY SAD!
John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited
I agree with you Robert that there is a perilous lack of giving among Christians, especially wealthy Christians.
But I wouldn't equate that with those who argue against the legalistic imposition of tithing to the church. Nor would I equate those who refute tithing to the church with being 'anti-givers.'
I do know many Christians who give far more than 25% of their income to provide for the poor either here or in developing nations who do not give 10% to their church. In their minds, they are more interested in seeing the excess income they give go to provide to assist the poor to get back on their feet again, or in support of those involved in the front line work of caring for those with AIDS, malnutrition, war vets, people caught in systemic poverty etc...
The reference by Oliver to the texts from Hebrews is interesting, not only in the context of tithing but in the context of what carry forwards there are from the Old Testament to the New.
On the one hand Jesus came to fulfil the law, and in another sense he came to overturn it. His refutation of 'an eye for an eye' and 'hate your enemy' must have shocked his audience and no doubt helped set off the opposition against him among the religious.
The writer of Hebrews gets this in his declaring Jesus' pre-eminence over Moses, the Levitical priesthood, and the Old Covenant. Perhaps the most scandalous claim in Hebrews is its claim that not only does the New Covenant replace the Old Covenant but that it renders the Old Covenant 'obsolete', 'old and out-dated' and 'close to disappearing' - see Hebrews 8:7-13, particularly verse 13.
Extend that principle to biblical interpretation and especially to the interpretation of biblical prophecy and in an instant most current eschatology goes right out the window - including most if not all variations of both dispensationalism and pre-millennialism.
Robert Dallmann, Director at ChristLife, Inc.
Hi John Deacon,
You said quote: "But I wouldn't equate that with those who argue against the legalistic imposition of tithing to the church. Nor would I equate those who refute tithing to the church with being 'anti-givers.'"
My response: First, I do NOT advocate legalism. I advocate Spirit-led giving... the Holy Spirit will NEVER lead someone to VIOLATE God's Word.
Second, experientially over the past three decades, I have NEVER ONCE met anyone who was against tithing who EVER gave 10% of more to the ministry. Thus, I equate anti-tithing as experientially the same as anti-giving.
I am not saying there is no one who does give more... I am saying that of the people I know personally... NONE, NOT ONE... gives 10% or more.
That is anti-giving.
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You said quote: "On the one hand Jesus came to fulfil the law, and in another sense he came to overturn it."
My response: This is in DIRECT OPPOSITION to what Jesus Himself said about the Law!
Matthew 5:18 - "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."
According to Jesus, if Heaven and earth are still here, not ONE jot or tittle of the Law has passed away.
I am sticking with Jesus.
John Deacon, VP of Deacon Insurance
With Christ came grace and truth which supercedes the law. Christ fulfilled all the Law's requirements, which means we now live according to the Spirit and not according to the Law. Christ has set us free, as GK Chesterton aptly put it: 'so goodness could run wild.'
The law was a schoolmaster, a guardian to lead us to Christ. But now that Christ has come and fulfilled the Law's requirements, we live by the Spirit.
Hence circumcision went out the window as did geneologies as did 'an eye for an eye'.
Yes the law remains for the lawless for the same reason that civil law remains in society - to provide boundaries for judging right behaviour.
But the Law on its own can never justify us, nor is it ever to be cited as our justification or means of justification. Otherwise Christ died in vain. He did for us what we could never do for ourselves, he became sin for us that we share in his righteouseness. He is ever our justifier and justification.
You can't read the Sermon on the Mount without realizing Jesus was changing the rules, at least the rules as Moses had laid them out.
No longer were the people of God allowed to retaliate against their enemies, they were to love them instead.
No longer were the people of God to curse other people, in fact Jesus warns against calling anyone a 'fool.'
No longer could a man divorce his wife the way Moses had prescribed..
Jesus in changing the rules was giving evidence that the old was passing away, that the One saying 'But I say unto you' was in fact the real Lawgiver, the Eternal One, the one who in fulfilling the law's demands had come to set us free.
Ironically the freedom he gives us in many instances asks even more of us than did the law! Rather than give a tenth, we are to give everything if we are to be like our Master.
The re-distribution of wealth as prescribed in the OT teaching about gleaning, tithing, restitution, debt forgiveness and Jubilee is replaced by an ongoing wealth re-distribution so no one is poor and the Jubilee never ends.
We are to love our enemies which is much harder than what Moses had prescribed and Christ's strictures on divorce far more constraining than what Moses had stipulated.
In reading through the Sermon on the Mount and the corresponding passages in Luke 6 and Luke 12, it really seems as though Jesus is exacting an even harder law than the law of Moses!
But with Christ would also come grace - not just in the theoretical sense - but for the community as well. It marked the end of animal sacrifice, as well as the end of community 'stoning events' for people caught in adultery or idolatry. It shifted the emphasis of spiritual growth from aiming to be a 'Pharisee of the Pharisees' to showing mercy as God shows mercy. It moved God's people from being judges to being ministers of reconciliation.
The difference has to do with equipping. When Moses gave the law, it was without the necessary empowerment of the Holy Spirit. The people had to do it on their own. Vital to the Law's role in God's dealing with humanity, was its very simple and yet humiliating lesson - we can't please God on our own!
But with Christ's death and resurrection, the Holy Spirit is given and the empowerment for us to live and behave as God's children.
So what happens to tithing? It is replaced by giving one's all. How is it possible? By the Holy Spirit God gives us when we ask!
I can understand why churches would appeal to the passages in Malachi and other OT passages to substantiate their asking for 10% of their congregation's aggregate income. It helps pay the bills, provide adequate income to good staff, and allows the church to take care of the needs of its poorer members and neighbours. It helps churches budget based on a prescribed formula.
But that is really all it is. A formula. Which some churches adhere to and others don't.
Hudson Taylor put it best - 'God's work done God's way will never lack God's supply.'
Robert Dallmann, Director at ChristLife, Inc.
Sorry John Deacon,
Heaven and earth are still here... according to Jesus not ONE jot or tittle of the Law has passed away.
Yes, there has been a change to the Law, but the change in no way discards any of it (according to Jesus). The change is in motivation and enabling.
OT - Don't lie - motivation - fear of God - earning favor - self effort
NT - Don't lie - motivation - love of God - expression of gratitude and obedience - Holy Spirit power
What has changed is NOT the outward... it IS the inward.
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You said quote: "Hence circumcision went out the window as did geneologies as did 'an eye for an eye'."
My response: Both OT and NT teach that the circumcision that mattered was that of the heart... NOTHING went out the window.
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You said quote: "But the Law on its own can never justify us, nor is it ever to be cited as our justification or means of justification."
My response: I have NEVER in three decades EVER stated any justification by adherence to the Law... NEVER!
However, obedience is evidence of the internal working of the Holy Spirit.
* Don't lie, cheat, covet, steal, rob from God, etc.
God expects and empowers us to be obedient.
2 Corinthians 9:13 - (NASB) - "Because of the PROOF GIVEN BY THIS MINISTRY, they will GLORIFY GOD FOR YOUR OBEDIENCE TO YOUR CONFESSION of the GOSPEL OF CHRIST AND FOR THE LIBERALITY OF YOUR CONTRIBUTION to them and to all,"
Maxwell Graham, Author at Wigglesworth Press
Brothers and sisters, I reluctantly come back into the debate with a quote from Upton Sinclair - "“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”
That is why this debate is going nowhere period.
John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited
Love the quote Maxwell. It applies here as in so many areas!
Even though I am woefully short of the mark, you should hear the comebacks I get when I share with fellow Christians that in order for us to be disciples of Jesus Christ we must sell all we have to follow him. (Luke 12:33, 14:33)
When our money and possessions are at stake, it is amazing how our explanation of what it means to follow Christ changes. As Chesterton wrote: "it is not as though Christianity has been tried and found wanting, it's been tried and been found to be too hard!"
Soren Kierkegaard was even harsher: "The Bible is very easy to understand. But we Christians are a bunch of scheming swindlers. We pretend to be unable to understand it because we know very well that the minute we understand, we are obliged to act accordingly.”
It is hard if not impossible to find anyone who really believes the Bible, based not on what they say but on what they do - which is the true measure of the rightness of anyone's theology. It is only as good as what we put into practice. It is only as good as how well we love the neighbour we see (neighbour including the poor and one's enemies), not by how well we say we love God who we can't see.
Better to admit as Christians that we are hypocrites upfront. It makes it easier for those who have been put off from becoming Christians by Christians to run and embrace the only true Christian there ever was, is or will be: Jesus Christ.
I think Paul means something like that when he wrote 'I am dead in Christ and yet alive because of Christ who lives in me.'
Only in Christ can we lay claim to being his new creation.
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