Counting the cost?

Simon Zelikman, at Emmanuel's Doorpost

John, Kurt, and ...........

No one would criticize your commitment to help the poor, we all want to help all, and all in whatever way possible, or we do not possess compassion, or Truth in the heart.

But, to generalize all so called "rich" as bad, is a GREAT mistake, and I feel as strongly about this as you do about your continued accusations.

And I feel strongly that to continually "help" some of the "poor", is to enable them to stay inactive, and this is Not as God would have us do.
Enabling is Not helping!

Proverbs 10: 3 The Lord will not suffer the soul of the righteous to famish: but he casteth away the substance of the wicked.

4 He becometh poor that dealeth with a slack hand: but the hand of the diligent maketh rich.

5 He that gathereth in summer is a wise son: but he that sleepeth in harvest is a son that causeth shame.

6 Blessings are upon the head of the just: but violence covereth the mouth of the wicked.

God wants us to work hard in whatever way we are gifted in, and yes we must help any and all, But we are Not to become beggars if we are able to prosper, and provide, as He blesses us to do, in His service, and for all.

God bless

Yours,

John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited

Simon:
It is my contention that what is wrong with Christianity is what is wrong with the world. God so loved the world he gave us his Son, so by extension it is God's love for the world that we as his people are to be engaged in.
The kingdom is wherever Jesus is. And as Matthew 25 tells us, he is with the homeless, the naked, the poor, etc. Not to say he isn't elsewhere but this passage from Matthew identifies where he can always be found!
So to be about the Lord's business, we must be where he is.
And if we are, then not only the matter of what's wrong with Christianity will be made right (or at least better) and by extension, so too the world.
In my expressions of concern about the wealthy, be assured I am addressing myself. For I too am wealthy.

Simon Zelikman, at Emmanuel's Doorpost

So why don't you give it all away, and move yourself and your family into a homeless shelter?

Howard Nason, Associate Pastor for missions at Northstar Church of God

John,
What are you doing personally to alleviate the suffering you have statistically documented? James wrote, " you say you have faith and I have works, I will show you my faith by my works." I can show you my faith by my works in working with and ministering to people in every one of those catagories and empowering others to do likewise. And John, its takes many rich people to support these works of mercy. Or, we can turn them over to the tender mercies of the government who will enslave them by making them eternally dependent upon a government system. In this day and age it takes every possible resource to address poverty and other issues that harm and kill millions. John, get beyond statistics, roll up your sleeves and go to work in a soup kitchen, a local mission or a prison.
TODAY I am taking several men and women to a prison for their orientation and badging so that they can minister to offenders, and in particular, 3 of the men, plus myself and another veteran will be trained as service officers to help offenders who were in the military apply for benefits for themselves and especially their families.
No one questions your statistics, but your solution to attack the rich for being evil because they are rich is neither biblical or practical.
Jesus said, "render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's." There is a place for the work of government to alleviate suffering and there is a place for the Body of Christ to carry out Jesus' commandment states in Matthew 25. It is not an either or, its a both and, so stop berating me and millions of others who have worked hard, served the Lord and have been financially blessed by the Lord himself. It is one thing to make proclamations from an ivory tower, its another thing to leave the cloistered life of contemplation and get down in the dirt and filthy, the disease and death that the poor live with and die from every day.

Agape,


John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited

Simon and Howard:
Good questions for all of us to be asking ourselves.
My insistence is we need to make ourselves answerable to those questions.

But big picture - beyond all the individual things we are doing - visiting people in hospitals, prisons, clothing the homeless, volunteering at an inner city church, advocating with various anti-poverty groups both locally and nationally...

We need to address the big-ticket social issues - the wide gap between rich and poor countries and communities; the disparity in our respective justice systems, the advancement of womens' rights and education initiatives, the systemic faults in our economic and political systems that need to be redressed to lessen the oppression poor people both here and globally face.
The church is not only to be the expression of his compassion but advocates for his justice - prophets speaking to those in power just as did Amos, Isaiah, Jeremiah, James and Christ himself.
My experience in making such appeals - in the church and in various levels of government that initially there are an acceptance that these issues are grievous but making the translation from platitudes to real social action and change is excruciatingly hard.

John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited

Simon and Howard:

Good questions for all of us to be asking ourselves.
My insistence is we need to make ourselves answerable to those questions and not just the questions of what we believe about baptisms, atonement etc, etc...

But big picture - beyond all the individual things we are doing - visiting people in hospitals, prisons, clothing the homeless, volunteering at an inner city church, advocating with various anti-poverty groups both locally and nationally...

We need to address the big-ticket social issues - the wide gap between rich and poor countries and communities; the disparity and inequity in our respective justice systems, the need to advance the rights of women especially education initiatives, the systemic faults in our economic and political systems that need to be redressed to lessen the oppression poor people both here and globally face.
The church is not only to be the expression of Christ's compassion but advocates for his justice - prophetic, speaking to those in power just as did Amos, Isaiah, Jeremiah, James and Christ himself.

My experience in making such appeals - in the church and in various levels of government is that initially there are an acceptance that these issues are grievous. The hard work is the translation from platitudes to real social action. This kind of change does occur but it can be excruciatingly hard at times, requiring much patience and perseverance...

PS - As seemingly disagreed as we are, I think we can agree that we can be doing more and should be spending more time in our respective Christian communities asking ourselves: Are we actually ministering to Jesus in 'the least of these his brethren' or just talking about it - assuming we talk about it at all?

I'm not - even though I spend upwards of 20 hours/wk - alongside running a business - being with poor and homeless people. I haven't moved into their neighbourhood full-time - that may one day happen if all my prayers are answered - but when one has aging parents and kids at the marrying age with their own issues to attend to - it gets complicated. Right now I am with our youngest who has just undergone major surgery...

And Howard - again - thank you for sharing the news of the good works you do. It gives me something to aim for!
To get some feel for the passion and conviction that drives me go to: www.homelessguide.com

Howard Nason, Associate Pastor for missions at Northstar Church of God

John,

thanks for the kind response. We all are using our gifts, and your family is your Jerusalem right now. My prayers are with you for a complete recovery for your youngest and blessings to you and all of your extended family. Keep on keeping on, my brother.

Agape,

Howard

Simon Zelikman, at Emmanuel's Doorpost

The same from me John, Howard said it better then I could.

God bless,

Yours,

John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited

Thanks Howard!
Your prayers are much appreciated.
I do admit to being rough on the wealthy and hopefully alongside passion will come wisdom!
That said, you read Amos and hear how angry he got at the sins of his people, especially of those in power and you think - the inequity then wasn't anything like it is now and they didn't have the benefit of Christ's example!

John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited

Thanks Simon!
It means a lot.
Actually this morning's back and forth helped me in deferring the anxiety I experience whenever things are precarious for those dear to me.
The surgery went very well, her recovery begins...thanks again for your prayers. Arguments can divide but prayer brings us together in a way nothing else can.

Kurt Kelley, Bassist/Vocalist at Treehouse Productions. Community Outreach Worker, Volunteer at Nursing Homes, Churches, etc...

John, I couldnt help bu notice your post giving reasons why you couldnt go serve full time in your areas of passion, serving the poor of the world. You mentioned aging parents, along with children of marrying age. So what is your take on the various bible passages that address those very issues, reasons to not follow Christ when He calls?

"when He called James and John, sons of Zebedee, IMMEDIATELY they let down their nets, LEFT their father, and followed Him."

Or Luke 9:57-62 57 As they were walking along the road, a man said to him, “I will follow you wherever you go.”
58 Jesus replied, “Foxes have dens and birds have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.”
59 He said to another man, “Follow me.”
But he replied, “Lord, first let me go and bury my father.”
60 Jesus said to him, “Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God.”
61 Still another said, “I will follow you, Lord; but first let me go back and say goodbye to my family.”
62 Jesus replied, “No one who puts a hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God.”

Or Luke 18:28 Peter said to him, “We have left all we had to follow you!”
29 “Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

In the days of Jesus, you didnt have many single adults, just living on their own, able to up and do whatever they chose. Pretty much every man of physical maturity was married. THough the bible doesnt give the family backgrounds of His 12 Disciples, one can assume, based on knowledge of the culture at the time, that most of those guys were probably married with children, and aging parents, etc...when Jesus called them to leaver EVERYTHING behind and follow Him.

But we dont have to go back 2000 years to find examples of devoted Disciples who left everything to follow Him. Have you ever read about the Chinese Underground Church movement? People who have endured prison, punishment, even tortured for the Gospel, which includes being seperated from their families, for years, and sometimes, forever. Or indigenous missionaries in India, who choose to leave their families behind, for the greater call of taking the Gospel into villages and areas unfamiliar, or hostile to the Gospel.

There are numerous examples through out Scripture of Jesus challenging would be Disciples that He must come first, even before family. He said that our love for Him should be so that our devotion to our families should seem like hatred in comparison.

The point is, we all can find reasons not to Follow Him with reckless abandon. Almost everyone has some kind of family, or loved ones in their lives. Mortgages, careers, seniority, etc...There is always a reason or excuse why we cant follow Him just now.

John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited

Dear Kurt:
Guilty on all charges!
I do rationalize and when someone calls me to account the variance between the words of Jesus and the way I live my life, all I can say is: 'Woe is me."
I do expect to hear a repeat of many of your words on that Great Day when I have to give account for the life I've lived.
So rather than waste another word in self-justification, I am repeating this reflection I posted several months ago which I entitled 'The Smiling Camel':

Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God. Matthew 19:24

I tend to wear most proudly that which I least deserve.
Several weeks ago I was honoured alongside a dozen career volunteers of an agency in Regent Park (one of Toronto's poorest neighbourhoods).
Though I was the least deserving of the twelve, my smile was the biggest in the room. Like the camel who makes it through the eye of a needle and has no idea why, what can he do but smile?
Whether it's street friends living with schizophrenia who know me by name, or women caught in the sex trade who trust me as a friend, there is something about being known among the hurting that exceeds any other acclaim.

Kurt Kelley, Bassist/Vocalist at Treehouse Productions. Community Outreach Worker, Volunteer at Nursing Homes, Churches, etc...

John, I wouldnt have asked you that, had I not experienced it myself. I am seeking seriously to go on the mission field. I dont see the need for me here, when just at my medium sized church, are dozens who could teach the gospel, a dozen who could lead worship, and almost everyone there KNOWS and understands the gospel. Whereas, there are many parts of the world where they have no one who knows, understand, or who can lead or teach the scriptures. So I definitely feel needed more elsewhere, than to just be another American Christian preaching to the choir. (or entertaining them with my music)

My personal situation is that I am the only surviving child of two divorced, aging parents, who live 8 hours apart from each other, and both very far from me. Mom is 78, dad 83. Both are still very healthy and all, but it wont last forever. We arent very close, but I still feel the biblical obligation to honour my parents. However, when Ive tried to move back to the midwest from Florida, in order to be closer to them, its been a disaster. No opportunities, I get depressed, and neither of them said they needed me to live near them. Both told me I should stay where I can make a living for myself.

But my heart beats for missions more than anything else. Im just going thru the motions now, being comfortable, having fun playing music for a living. I have contemplated waiting for them to pass on, THEN I will go. Trouble is, IM already 51, and not getting any younger. And considering how my grandparents all lived into their 90s, its a good bet that my parents have a good 10-15 years to go. That would have me waiting till Im 65 to go.

When Jesus admonished the man who said he had to first bury his father in order to Follow Jesus, it wasnt like his dad just died, and the funeral was the next day. He meant, he wanted to wait until his father died, which could have taken who knows how long. SO, I think I need to go NOW. Living 1200 miles from them, I usually only see them once, or maybe twice a year anyway. If they get sick, I can just come home from the field to look in on them. All I know is that I have felt called to missions for years, and Im tired of making excuses.

John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited

I can hear the Lord's voice in your words and I do believe he is calling you to places where he isn't known.
Let me pray about this through the night and I will pass on any additional thoughts I have tomorrow.
Your hunger to be a disciple having given your all is inspiring. Makes me want to racket up my commitment just hearing you!

Howard Nason, Associate Pastor for missions at Northstar Church of God

Kurt, age is no big deal. I was 68 when I became a full time facility chaplain in a state prison. I retired when I was 73. Four months later a week after my 74th birthday I was invited to go to work with FEMA. After 15 deployment requests amd 13 actual deployments I retired in June of 2013 to be home with my wife. 6 months later, December of 2013 I was asked to serve a local church as their Associate Pastor for Missions. Today I had 7 people complete their orientation to be volunteers at the prison where I was the first full time chapalin. There is no retirement in God's army, but the eternal benefits are out of this world.
Dear brothers, family(Jerusalem) is your first ministry, beyond that, God will place your not where you feel you ought to be, but where He wants you to be. Wait upon the Lord and He will give you the desires of your heart through the leading of the Holy Spirit.

Carpe Diem,

Agape,

Esther Plastridge, Owner at KissingKoi Boutique

Kurt--if I may add (butting in) to your conversation--I love a wonderful couple of the Lord who are 84 and 85 years of age and they have just retired from Kingsway fellowship Int'l as director of missions. They continue to travel world-wide and their feet have touched 67 nations. They are called Papa and Mama world-wide.

There is nothing to say that you can't go on short term mission trips. With that said, I have not followed your conversations, I have just butted in with hopes to encourage you. Blessings Esther

Ed Considine - Trinity College Graduate-Jerusalem University-

Esther,

Let me add, not to minimize what you just said to Kurt, but the mission field for any true disciple of Jesus Christ Our Lord is AT EACH ONE'S FEET. It is here and now to give a reason for the hope in which we hope for. Each and every day is a new day. Are you ready today wherever you stand whoever you are?


John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited

Kurt:

Thanks for your honesty and your hunger for righteousness.
It lends itself well to propelling how we might all better live the Christian life - which is rudimentary to making Christianity alive in the generation that follows ours.
I do think the question you are asking yourself couldn't come at a better time. Clearly you are beyond the age of wanting to make a name for yourself, you are ready to serve others, to esteem the interests and aspirations of others above your own.
That comes more naturally to you than most, being a bass player and all. Bass players are used to providing the essentials of depth and rhythm to music without much fan fare.
I mean other than Charlie Mingus, Paul McCartney and John Deacon (of Queen fame) who can name a bass player?

I'm quite serious in proceeding along this line in contributing my two cents for what might lie ahead of you - as well as for many of us who are 50 plus in the church and wondering what's next.
In my case, I became a Christian through the Jesus People Movement in Philadelphia in the early 70’s, then joined a charismatic group in Toronto called Catacombs being one of several who wrote and played music central to our worship.
When the church imploded in the early 80’s my wife and I joined a local and very affluent suburban evangelical church. Although it seemed like a throw back to the early 50’s, it at least gave us the grounding we needed to ‘settle down.’

But in the early 90’s we started to wonder if we had settled down too much! When our eldest son came asking for a pair of Air Jordans (running shoes) at $150 without tax, we realized that we hadn’t provided our kids to any exposure to the world around them other than the privileged side of the street.

So we got involved in some inner city missions working with homeless and street people, people struggling with addiction, sexuality and poverty related issues and found ourselves somewhat contrary to the suburban church thing. I would preach on Sundays when the pastor was away but my sermons became a little hard to stomach. The appeals to seek justice and community alongside the poor did well with the youth but the older members complained I was too political, that ‘Jesus didn’t mean it when he said that following him would cost everything we’ve got!'

Participating in a small Anglican church in the City’s rougher neighbourhoods, it really hits home for us. Of the dozen or so people there, many live with mental health and addiction issues stemming from physical and/or sexual abuse they experienced as young children. And yet what these believers teach us about real faith matches that of any seminary.
God is always at work among the poor and he is ever looking for those who will work alongside him, even if it means reproach and being misunderstood.

I have no doubt you are cut out for the mission field whether here or oceans away.
There may be many who preach the word here, but there are too few who live it out. North America is not suffering from a lack of people preaching and teaching his word, but a lack of people living it out. Isn't it ironic that the one who became the symbol in the 20th Century for putting the Sermon on the Mount into practice wasn't a Christian but a Hindu named Gandhi? Will the one who comes closest in the 21st Century be a Muslim?
One would hope we as Christians might come closest, but as your entries repeatedly contend, we seem to be more interested in our prosperity and pre-eminence than we are in carrying a cross.

If you haven't read Shane Claiborne's 'An Irresistible Revolution', read it. Communities like a Simple Way are springing up throughout the US and Canada which look more like the church in Smyrna (Rev 2:8-11) than the church in Laodicea (Rev 3:14-20), which is the church too many of us attend.

Among the hurting - whether homeless, alienated, refugees, maligned or ignored - you will find your place.