41,000 denominations and counting

Discussion on the Global Pastors Network - which illustrates our capacity as Christians to be divided...

Christopher Aune, Certified Life Coach, Counselor and Consultant at Christopher Aune Group
Okay, let me go out on a limb here and say, I think I know why there are 41,000 denominations and what it will take to fix it. Bring your saw...
Whats Wrong With Christianity... and How To Fix It christopheraune.blogspot.com
There are many heated debates in study groups and online about what the Bible really says and what Jesus really teaches. These debates sometimes become quarrels, quarrels become divisions, and divisions have become 41,000 Christian denominations....

Pastor Betty J. Williams
--Overseeer at THE BURNING BUSH EVANGELISTIC MINISTRIES

If we could possibly agree together, that individually we do not know everything.
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part (1Corinthians 13:9). -Blessings

Doug Greenwold
Senior Teaching Fellow at Preserving Bible Times, Inc.

In a nutshell, too many believers and not nearly enough disciples!

John Deacon
VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited

I think our moving forward lies not is our striving for theological oneness but in our commitment as Christians to love as Jesus loves, to be among the poor as Jesus was, and to advocate for the most vulnerable among us, as Jesus did.
Taking directive from Pope Francis' message yesterday - see excerpt below - we must move from 'globalized indifference' to truly fraternal love for all people...

In the heart of every man and woman is the desire for a full life, including that irrepressible longing for fraternity which draws us to fellowship with others and enables us to see them not as enemies or rivals, but as brothers and sisters to be accepted and embraced.
Fraternity is an essential human quality, for we are relational beings. A lively awareness of our relatedness helps us to look upon and to treat each person as a true sister or brother; without fraternity it is impossible to build a just society and a solid and lasting peace. We should remember that fraternity is generally first learned in the family, thanks above all to the responsible and complementary roles of each of its members, particularly the father and the mother. The family is the wellspring of all fraternity, and as such it is the foundation and the first pathway to peace, since, by its vocation, it is meant to spread its love to the world around it.
The ever-increasing number of interconnections and communications in today’s world makes us powerfully aware of the unity and common destiny of the nations. In the dynamics of history, and in the diversity of ethnic groups, societies and cultures, we see the seeds of a vocation to form a community composed of brothers and sisters who accept and care for one another. But this vocation is still frequently denied and ignored in a world marked by a “globalization of indifference” which makes us slowly inured to the suffering of others and closed in on ourselves.
Pope Francis, for World Day of Peace, January 1st, 2014

Christopher Aune, Certified Life Coach, Counselor and Consultant at Christopher Aune Group


@Pastor Betty - Yes, we need each other. To come into agreement, I think we need to study together for a year, starting with Bible foundations: Where does it come from? How are we supposed to understand it? How are we supposed to do it? I'm a member of a 6 person Bible study group that has been studying together for two years, but there is still disagreement because we never established the foundations of our study. I'm trying to move us in that direction now to finally establish foundations.

Christopher Aune, Certified Life Coach, Counselor and Consultant at Christopher Aune Group

@Doug - That's exactly it in a nutshell. But how do we crack the nut and get believers to become disciples? (I really love that distinction between believers and disciples. Thanks!)

Christopher Aune, Certified Life Coach, Counselor and Consultant at Christopher Aune Group

@John - Excellent insight: We develop that fraternal sense very early in a healthy family environment, but sometimes not at all in an unhealthy family. I've repeated often that we don't have a childcare or child discipline issue, we have a parenting issue. When parents model healthy spiritual life, forgiveness, and generosity, then children are established in it and everything else is strange to them.

The Dalai Lama has suggested that if, for one year, we would teach all 5 year old children to meditate on compassion, it would change the world. Indeed it would, don't you think?

John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited

The Dalai Lama is on to something. And if we adults could become as little children and embrace compassion shedding the skin of scepticism, cynicism, indifference and just plain old unbelief, that too would change the world!

Fran Pultro, Senior Pastor at Calvary Chapel King's Highway

Though individual Christians are not perfect & have "issues" - after all, we are human - I don't thing there is anything "wrong" with Christianity.

The Lord established the Church, knowing how it would develop. But He did so it anyway.
I'm not saying that some parts of the Body of Christ are not very far off-base in some very important ways, like showing the love of Christ. (Did anyone say Westboro Baptist?)

But "Christianity" - the pure version as laid out in the doctrines of the Bible - is just fine.

John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited

Fran:

You're right. There's nothing wrong with Christianity if we are only looking at its founder.

But for those outside the faith whose only means of evaluating Christianity are the Christians they know, there is something drastically out of sorts comparing us to Jesus! And it doesn't help that we are so militantly opposed to critical self-examination. Aren't we to frequently 'test ourselves to see if we are in the faith?'
When those outside our faith point to the wide gap between the life Jesus lived and the life we as Christians live, we don't hear them. Instead we're more likely to say we're being persecuted! If only that were the case!

The true measure of how we're doing as Christians is our neighbours, especially the ones who are alienated, marginalized and poor. If they are doing better because of our presence and involvement in the neighbourhood, I think we're headed in the right direction.

Fran Pultro, Senior Pastor at Calvary Chapel King's Highway

Hi John. Yes, individual Christians are certainly imperfect reflections of Christ. But I will disagree with you that "The true measure of how we're doing as Christians is our neighbours, especially the ones who are alienated, marginalized and poor," if by that you mean what those folks think of Christians. Non-Christians are not the measure. God's opinion of us is the true measure.

Non-Christians are not the experts on what the Church is/is not; what the love of Christ looks like (though sometimes they are spot-on); or even WWJD in certain circumstances. Even those of us who have surrendered ourselves to Christ, who study the Scriptures & pray don't have a perfect handle on these things.

But if by that sentence you mean the way Christians love (a verb) those folks, then I agree that there is much improvement to be made.

I'm glad the Lord made it simple with His summary of the Law: love God with all of your heart, soul, mind & strength, then love your neighbor as yourself.

John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited

Dear Fran:
Thanks for your response. I think the distinction you make helps.
Where I am coming from parallels a statement made by Rev. James Forbes years ago:
"Nobody gets into heaven without a letter of reference from the poor."
When we provide for the poor God is honoured and when God is honoured Christianity becomes radiant again!

Christopher Aune, Certified Life Coach, Counselor and Consultant at Christopher Aune Group
Top Contributor

I think I'm pretty clear that Christianity is broken in it's 41,000 denominations.

The Christianity that is not broken is a poorly defined utopian philosophy where everybody can believe their individual conception of God and heaven. We use this nebulous, incomplete version of Christianity to fool ourselves into believing that we believe in and follow Jesus.

The Christianity I'm referring to is the specific practices of a way of life that bring us into intimate relationship with God, build the kingdom of God on earth, and transition us into eternal life with God in heaven. When Jesus tells us to... Go and make disciples, baptizing them, and teaching them to do everything I commanded you, he is pointing to specific things that make us one with him and God; and when we are one with them, we are in eternal life.

In my decades of working with pastors, I've heard them teaching people to stop sinning, forgive one another, and take care of the poor, but little to nothing about the specific things that Jesus commands to get us to heaven. Modern Christianity is broken in my view because pastors teach all kinds of things which are mostly an incomplete version of the Good News, and the fix is to learn and do what Jesus really teaches. That would bring the 41,000 back together again.

Bishop Dr. O. K. (Ken) Neal, Bishop and Counselor - Acts Ministry Church International.

Faith Hope and Love, love. love. If the Christians would quit fighting among themselves and shooting their wounded, we could LITERALLY move mountains and change cultures.

Republicans, Democrats, United Methodists et al should prove what internal fighting will produce. God is Love. If we have no love, we do not have God. Jesus told us, "A new command I give you, Love one another." He also told us love covers "all the law and the prophets."

Maranatha. -k-

Fran Pultro, Senior Pastor at Calvary Chapel King's Highway

Christopher, thanks for clarifying your meaning.

Pastor Betty J. Williams
--Overseeer at THE BURNING BUSH EVANGELISTIC MINISTRIES

Denominations form for many different reasons. Such as culture, geographic locations, viewpoints, cultures, preference, interpretations, bad stuff, etc. And over a period of time these being in part develop into sub-denominations, and so on, and so on.

1. Divisions are not a new to The Body.
For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. (1Corinthians 11:18, 19; 14:26 KJV)

2. And fragmentations.
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd (John 10:16 KJV).

3. There is also an incident where there were others doing their own thing. Perhaps as the disciples we too would have classified them as a denomination.
And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me (Mark 9:38 KJV).

4. The battle is not ours, it belongs to The LORD.
Frankly, I would not determine myself the task of judging another man’s servant; and this for the following reasons.
But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn (Matthew 13:29 KJV).

It is currently estimated that there are approximately 2.1 billion Christians (?) worldwide; which is about one third of the world’s populace. Those not saved remain in despair, being apart from The True and Living GOD, while the church yet bickers over who is to be the greatest (so to speak).
5. Let us do the root work.
Just as a bad marriage, there seems to be no stone left unturned. Perhaps the reason why this issue goes unresolved is not doubts not for us to solve.
The enemy is not focused on denominations; as they are a given; being formed out of the bitter bellies of individuals; are but the end product. The real problem lies within each individual church; where Satan rages internally from person to person. Be not deceived, as we may be fighting the wrong fight. -Blessings

baffour boadu ahenkan
manager at ahenbaf enterprise

Christians today are just enjoying the grace and mercy for getting about the sheddind of the blood for our sins.Salvation through merit which we ought to proclaim the gos pel to the lost has been forgotten and deviated entirely. its time to put an end to dogmatism , fix name and titles and invite the holy spirit to touch the unbelievers, proclaim the goog news that .love the lord with all your heart and strengh and love thy neighbour as thy self. then we should follow the apostles on what they heard and apply in Acts 2,,39-43 and stop the debates and arguments which would drop many christians out. many think jesus has changed his mind ,Others thought that he has stop coming again some are still adamant about his teachings and coming . this is the challenges that we should quickly address.Thank and God bless you

Christopher Aune, Certified Life Coach, Counselor and Consultant at Christopher Aune Group
Top Contributor

@Pastor Betty – Good point. Divisions and denominations are not the real problem. In the yeshivas of Jesus’ era, people were encouraged to have diverse viewpoints and to challenge each other (iron sharpens iron), all the while maintaining the unity of the yeshiva.

Instead, I think the real problem is that none of the denominations (that I’m aware of) are teaching us the practices that take us to heaven. How do you do that? How do you “know God” so as to enter into eternal life (John 17:3)? We are all great at “knowing about God,” but what specific things does Jesus teach us to do to arrive at “know God” and have eternal life.

I would ask posters to list three things we need to practice, and describe how that practice leads to knowing God.

Christopher Aune, Certified Life Coach, Counselor and Consultant at Christopher Aune Group
Top Contributor

@baffour - I wrote the above before I saw your post. Nice start on the practices!

Bishop Dr. O. K. (Ken) Neal, Bishop and Counselor - Acts Ministry Church International.

I would like to add, "Keeping the main thing the main thing." Like many of you, I am watching other threads in this and other groups. There are always threads in which both side says ugly, judgmental things about the other side. These include women in leadership, Calvin vs Arminius, my church is right vs all others are wrong, you will be judged if you are not like me, KJV only vs never, etc, etc, etc, ad nauseam. Most of these things involve choices and many have been argued for years, if not centuries. Many have proof texts on both sides of the question.

I would truly love to be united. Christ prayed for it, Paul wished for it and Acts Ministry, Inc. was established is 1993 to promote, "Unity in Christ through the Holy Spirit." That is why I joined them. John Wesley wrote, "Except for salvation by faith alone and working toward holiness in this life, we think and let think." When I wrote that particular Wesley quote in a thread , "Can we Achieve Unity" I was immediately attacked by the group leader.

The Gospel is the main thing. All of the other stuff above, and et al, is superfluous. Was Jesus the only begotten son of the only living God? Was he God? Do you believe in Him? Have you asked Him into your heart? Have you repented of your sins? Can people see a change in the way you are living?

As long as there are 41000, or even two, groups that believe they are the only way, there can be no unity. Acts invites all beliefs under the paragraph above. Some want to join and then add immersion, charisma, predestination, etc. to the requirements for membership. When we explain that is not leading to unity, they leave.

Keep the main thing the main thing.


Doug Greenwold, Senior Teaching Fellow at Preserving Bible Times, Inc.

If we've taken our eyes off the "main thing," then we have a very serious issue. If the main thing is the "Gospel," then what happens when we restrict our understanding of that and focus on a truncated Gospel (let's at least save them). As a result, all we hear is the "Salvation Message." I would suggest the full blown Gospel includes "making disciples." There should be an equal number, if not more, messages on "how should we then live" to quote Francis Schaffer. As I overheard an older lady in the pew say after a Sunday service, "There we go again, preaching salvation to the already saved!" If 90% of an effective therapy is rooted in a sound diagnosis, let's preach the whole "making disciples" Gospel, not just the "save 'em" Gospel. Saving them is the easy part. It's growing them up and maturing them over 30 years that's the hard part, and it's why we shy away from doing it!

Just a thought.

Doug Greenwold, Preserving Bible Times

Bishop Dr. O. K. (Ken) Neal, Bishop and Counselor - Acts Ministry Church International.

It is a tiny line to walk. Make disciples of Christ or disciples of isms. Disciples of Christ will love God and love one another. Disciples of the isms will say ugly things to each other of LinkedIn. -k

John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited

I think that unity in Christ relies on more than our just being agreed on 'the main thing.'
It relies on our embracing the notion of diversity, that as much as we are members belonging to one another, we are also members in particular - called to a particular work which can differ significantly from what other members are doing.
As Christians we tend to be competitive about things Christ calls us to be co-operative about.
Rather than honour others above ourselves,
rather than honour ministries that differ from ours,
we fight among one another about what is most important:
evangelism or social justice, personal piety or social change.

Some insist Billy Graham was a true minister of the gospel whereas Martin Luther King was a civil rights leader through whom the gospel had little effect. But recognizing diversity as integral to our unity in Christ means that we accept and indeed esteem that both were doing the work God had called them to do; both were advancing the kingdom of God.
My Christian heroes tend to be the social engagement and justice types - Mother Theresa, Dorothy Day, Bishop Tutu, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Jim Wallis - so I have had more than more share of debates about how they stack up against the great evangelist/preachers of our time.
But there is to be no debate.
Billy Graham, MLK, Mandela, Mother T, Shane Claiborne, John Piper, Rob Bell, Jimmy Carter, Anne Lamott, Timothy Keller - they all belong on the same team - they are all doing their part to advance the kingdom - even when they can't quite agree.
Only God can rank them in terms of their contribution. All he has told us is the least shall be greatest...increasing the likelihood that the greatest will be someone whose ministry very few know about!
For unity to be achieved, we must give room for one another to be what God has called them to be, especially when their ministry differs widely from ours.
The fields are white and the labourers few, so let's not belittle the labourers even further by belittling the diversity of ministry and work God has called them and us to do.

Simon Zelikman at Emmanuel's Doorpost

God bless "all" His people Israel with His Truth; "If" they Ask, ..... Seek and Knock, so that
"""He""" can open unto them!

Act's 13 :16 Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience.

17 The God of this people of Israel chose our fathers, and exalted the people when they dwelt as strangers in the land of Egypt, and with an high arm brought he them out of it.

18 And about the time of forty years suffered he their manners in the wilderness.

19 And when he had destroyed seven nations in the land of Chanaan, he divided their land to them by lot.

20 And after that he gave unto them judges about the space of four hundred and fifty years, until Samuel the prophet.

21 And afterward they desired a king: and God gave unto them Saul the son of Cis, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, by the space of forty years.

22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave their testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.

23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.

25 And as John fulfilled his course, he said, Whom think ye that I am? I am not he. But, behold, there cometh one after me, whose shoes of his feet I am not worthy to loose.

26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.

The so called Church has separated themselves from the body they were given The Way to graft into?
The people of God were called a name by the Father, and His Son is the King of His people. Anyone want to guess what this mystery name may be?


Blessings to you all in this New Year!

Simon/Christian Israelites

Christopher Aune, Certified Life Coach, Counselor and Consultant at Christopher Aune Group

Wow! Great insights here.

In my perspective, "The Main Thing" -- love-- is reflected in two important practices:

1. Learning to be a disciple... learning and practicing what Jesus commands. (Still wanting to hear specifics about what exactly these disciplines are and how pastors teach them.)

1. Tolerance... because every human is a unique being who grows according to their own unique perspective and own unique set of talents. God made each of us a certain way, and since we are made in his image, the diversity is there for a reason. Tolerance allows God's diversity to be expressed in our individual uniqueness.

I think Doug Greenwold provides an excellent representation of how Jesus would do these two practices in his reflection, What is a Disciple? I posted an excerpt of his essay here: http://christopheraune.blogspot.com/2014/01/what-is-disciple.html

Gary Hunter, Servant at Scripted Destiny / Realtor at Preble Plus Realty

Not everyone claiming to be Christian is actually Christian.

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

It isn’t a matter of knowing and learning what Jesus teaches; it is a matter of His Truth taking up residence in your soul. It makes no difference at all how much you know intellectually about the teachings of Jesus; it makes all the difference in your eternal destiny if there is any Absolute Truth living within you.

There are counterfeit Christians that search the Scriptures for “Justification” to “support” their current lifestyle; and then there are genuine Christians that search the Scriptures for “Truth” that continually “changes” their lifestyle.

There will never be common ground between those that live their lives determined by the Absolute Truth of God and those whose lives are based on pure deception.

Gregory Lowrey, Minister at UBU Ministries

"My sheep hear my voice."

Doug Greenwold, Senior Teaching Fellow at Preserving Bible Times, Inc.

Sure helps when shepherds resonate with The Shepherd.

Mike Thompson

Jesus did not make converts; He made disciples. I believe that all who know Jesus are disciples. But the question is, how well are we as His disciples following Him? Herein may be the answer to what we are all asking

Doug Greenwold, Senior Teaching Fellow at Preserving Bible Times, Inc.

You're right on. Jesus made disciples. But do we? The question is: Are we content to let converts remain converts, have we resigned ourselves to having mostly believers in the pew, or are we determined to make disciples? I would suggest that without fully realizing it, we have blurred the distinctions between converts, believers and disciples. I would suggest they are not one in the same any more. A core issue in the church is too many "believers" and not enough "disciples." As Dallas Willard observes: "Non-discipleship is the elephant in the church."

Just a thought.

Doug Greenwold, Preserving Bible Times

Simon Zelikman at Emmanuel's Doorpost

To all "Church,

He is The Way to the Almighty Father of all, and many will sit at that Passover table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob ........

He is the King of His people, and the High Priest forever!

He is the Passover Lamb forevermore!

One God and we who seek to be a part His Body which is in Heaven!

Is the "Church" going to look for some very special place in Heaven, apart from all those Israelites, like Moses and David, the Prophets, and Apostles, and Paul, who were all very proud to proclaim themselves ........... God's Israel!!!
Is all this too "Jewish"?!?


Christianity would be greatly strengthened If it understood and stopped rejecting things which ... "Sure help when shepherds resonate with The Shepherd."

Hos 1: 10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

:11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.


A question to you all; Is the Church in some other special spot having been "raptured" to an "Easter" table?


God bless


John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited

Read the article on Christopher's blog by Doug Greenwold and found it insightful.
And in the most essential sense, I agree: Jesus is our rabbi.

But clearly for discipleship to take hold among Christians there must be those who like Paul insist: 'So imitate me, watch my ways, follow my example, just as I, too, always seek to imitate' Christ (see I Corinthians 11:1 - the Voice)

In other words we who are called to lead others must be living lives worth imitating.
Heady stuff - especially when you consider who our lives are to imitate.

Some have prayer lives worth replicating. Were others to imitate their prayer lives great advances were occur in them and in the church as a whole. For growth even in just a few benefits many.
Others live lives so out there among the hurting that to follow them for even a couple of hours is transformative - reshaping one's understanding of mercy, community and life style.
Others still are such students in life - both life as the current headline and life as found in Christ. When others imitate them, kingdom advances are made.

I think as pastors the challenge - at least initially - is to delineate what of our lives is worth imitating. In short, what is it we do that were someone else to replicate, would make them more and more like Christ?

There is a story that Philip Yancey tells about an eager Christian disciple who wrote each of 3 profound Christian writers on spirituality - Richard Foster, Philip Yancey and Henri Nouwen - as to how he might become a more authentic disciple of Jesus Christ.
The first 2 authors referred the inquirer to books about discipleship, the third, Henri Nouwen, suggested the inquirer come live with him for 2 weeks. The first 2 responses were typical, the third so atypical that it clearly stands out as the way Jesus made disciples.
Jesus trained his disciples by having them follow him so closely that the dust from his sandals was the dust on their sandals. He made visible what they were to replicate. They had to be with him to learn.

In my case, there is all too little in the way I live for others to replicate. But I do have something.
I have many street friends, many of whom are homeless. Attending a suburban church in a neighbourhood where homelessness, drug addiction, and trafficking are less visible than in the downtown core I work, I get requests from fellow church members asking me about homelessness and what we as Christians and as a society can do about it.
For years I would tell about them it, or write about it (see www.homelessguide.com), but recently my tune has changed.

What I do now is invite them to spend a couple of hours with me visiting some of the street people I know.
Without exception, the experience is transformational.
What touches them isn't my approach or my compassion or my understanding - it's the experience of their meeting 'the least of these' face to face. They are the catalysts for change.
As Jesus said they would be. 'Theirs,' he said, 'is the kingdom of God.' and elsewhere: 'inasmuch you have done for the least of these, you have done so for me.'

Youmanly basanshrieh, pastor at Christian church

Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace (Eph.4:3)

Christopher Aune, Certified Life Coach, Counselor and Consultant at Christopher Aune Group
Top Contributor

So, what are these commands that Jesus tells us to do that we may move mountains? I guess I was not one of the lucky ones who was preached the whole Good News, because I was only taught about repentance, and not about everything that Jesus commanded, as they were charged in the Great Commission.

I really need to get clear on this, so I'd appreciate it if you'd make the jump one last time to a new discussion thread in Global Pastor Network, titled So, what are these commands that Jesus tells us to do that we may move mountains?

Christopher Aune, Certified Life Coach, Counselor and Consultant at Christopher Aune Group

@Doug--Excellent insight, bro. "I would suggest that without fully realizing it, we have blurred the distinctions between converts, believers and disciples. I would suggest they are not one in the same any more. A core issue in the church is too many "believers" and not enough "disciples." As Dallas Willard observes: 'Non-discipleship is the elephant in the church.'"

I've been in a lot of different churches and spoken with many different pastors for decades, and my experience is that this elephant is standing on the podium in every church. I know, blatant..., but that is my observation.

Christopher Aune, Certified Life Coach, Counselor and Consultant at Christopher Aune Group
Top Contributor

@John--I love your post and will message you. I hope we can connect. I've always wanted to visit Toronto, but not today... ha.

Gregory Lowrey, Minister at UBU Ministries

" what are these commands that Jesus tells us to do that we may move mountains?"
You only have to believe it in your heart.

Gregory Lowrey, Minister at UBU Ministries

Christopher, (re: Doug), I would agree that it would be great if all were disciples, but I think that disciples make themselves and that converts approach God as they are drawn toward Him and not as they are driven toward Him. Jesus claimed that there would be very few disciples and that is not surprising considering he often asked people to think and behave quite differently from their natural inclinations.
Considering we are all individually impacted by and directed in our relationship with God and that discipleship begins with the first step, I wonder how there could be any criterion besides interest to determine who is an who isn't a disciple - or why it would matter to us at all. Shouldn't our own need to improve our discipleship be our focus instead.
Additionally, recall that Jesus included for us the concept that even dogs receive the crumbs that fall from the table. Who can say that "converts" have any different standing than a supposed "disciple" or even an investigator or that their time spent in worship and fellowship has less value than that of someone who we might consider more serious or invested?
He was also rebuked for consorting with people who were considered undeserving of his association though apparently he thought differently.
We are all God's children regardless of our belief. I'll leave it to Him to decide what has value.
Like Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 5 days ago

Benjamin Owino, pastor at evangel

praise the lord am happy to be part of what God is doing am pastor benjamin owino evangel church tororo uganda

John Deacon
VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited

Dear Gregory:

If Jesus said that we are to go out and make disciples, then certainly we can't be satisfied with congregations filled with converts. The writer of the letter of Hebrews took no delight in spiritual immaturity:
from Hebrews 5 - 11 "There is much more we would like to say about this, but it is difficult to explain, especially since you are spiritually dull and don’t seem to listen. 12 You have been believers so long now that you ought to be teaching others. Instead, you need someone to teach you again the basic things about God’s word.[c] You are like babies who need milk and cannot eat solid food. 13 For someone who lives on milk is still an infant and doesn’t know how to do what is right. 14 Solid food is for those who are mature, who through training have the skill to recognize the difference between right and wrong."

Plainly speaking, the kingdom only advances when Christians start acting like Jesus. And to behave like Jesus comes to us as it did for him - through discipleship or as the writer of Hebrews better states it - again from Chapter 5:
"7 While Jesus was here on earth, he offered prayers and pleadings, with a loud cry and tears, to the one who could rescue him from death. And God heard his prayers because of his deep reverence for God. 8 Even though Jesus was God’s Son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered. 9 In this way, God qualified him as a perfect High Priest, and he became the source of eternal salvation for all those who obey him."

Christopher Aune, Certified Life Coach, Counselor and Consultant at Christopher Aune Group
Top Contributor

@Gregory - I agree that we each should “improve our discipleship.” So, I ask you, how do I do that? Jesus said, "…{M}ake disciples… teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.” Where are those who are teaching everything Jesus commanded? I want to follow them and learn from them so I can have the results that Jesus promised.

You say that, "You only have to believe it in your heart," but that is not what Jesus teaches. How do I “believe?” Do I just hear the stories about Jesus and imagine in my heart that they are true? Is that believing? Where is the power in that? Where are the results that Jesus promised? And what is "it"?

Jesus said, “If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer” (Matthew 21:22), “Did I not tell you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?” (John 11:40), and “Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.” (Matthew 17:20)

Yet, virtually no Christian is receiving what they ask for in prayer, no one is reporting seeing the glory of God, and the impossible remains impossible.

Something is missing. That’s why I keep asking, what is it that Jesus commands us to do? What are these criterion that make me a true disciple of Jesus… with evidence?

Here's a new discussion thread in Global Pastor Network, titled So, what are these commands that Jesus tells us to do that we may move mountains?

Simon Zelikman at Emmanuel's Doorpost

@ Christopher, and all,

Which part of ....."Christians have separated themselves from The Way Christ provided, The Way to the Almighty Father of Israel, and His Son the King of Israel. By claiming you are "NOT" Israel, you proclaim yourself "NOT" people of God!"


Christopher Aune, Certified Life Coach, Counselor and Consultant at Christopher Aune Group
Top Contributor

Simon - The mike is on. Your post seems like a different discussion. I don't see the connection. Sorry.

Simon Zelikman at Emmanuel's Doorpost
Top Contributor

:) ... Christopher,

Maybe you missed this two day's ago .....

""""""God bless "all" His people Israel with His Truth; "If" they Ask, ..... Seek and Knock, so that
"""He""" can open unto them!

Act's 13 :16 Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience.

17 The God of this people of Israel chose our fathers, and exalted the people when they dwelt as strangers in the land of Egypt, and with an high arm brought he them out of it.

18 And about the time of forty years suffered he their manners in the wilderness.

19 And when he had destroyed seven nations in the land of Chanaan, he divided their land to them by lot.

20 And after that he gave unto them judges about the space of four hundred and fifty years, until Samuel the prophet.

21 And afterward they desired a king: and God gave unto them Saul the son of Cis, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, by the space of forty years.

22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave their testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.

23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.

25 And as John fulfilled his course, he said, Whom think ye that I am? I am not he. But, behold, there cometh one after me, whose shoes of his feet I am not worthy to loose.

26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.

The so called Church has separated themselves from the body they were given The Way to graft into?
The people of God were called a name by the Father, and His Son is the King of His people. Anyone want to guess what this mystery name may be?

Blessings to you all in this New Year!

Simon/Christian Israelites """""

You asked what is missing from Christianity, I think the mike may be on and off, being turned on and off by those who rather not seek real answers, but only pretend to.

Doug Greenwold, Senior Teaching Fellow at Preserving Bible Times, Inc.

Greg,

Regarding your thesis that "disciples make themselves," kind of hard to find that happening in the Gospels. Plus, in the rabbinic model, which is the context of the Gospels for "make disciples," it's the rabbi's who formed/maded/shaped the disciples, not vice versa. Reminds me of "He who began a good work within you will bring it to completion" If disciples made themselves, Jesus would have no reason to exhort them to "make disciples."

Just a thought.


Doug Greenwold, Senior Teaching Fellow at Preserving Bible Times, Inc.

Chris,

We don't move mountains, God does. So the real work is to seek out/wrestle with what God wants done, not what we want done, align our wills with His intentions, and then pray for that. Once that anointed outcome is clear, whatever mountain we pray to be moved will indeed be moved because He intends to move it. In our humanity, our wills are often at cross-purposes to what God wants done. That's why will-alignment is where the real work of moving mountains lies.

Just a thought.


Simon Zelikman at Emmanuel's Doorpost

Another thought for all the senior teaching fellows,

Christ the King of Israel taught all His disciples the Truth before He sent them out to make other disciples, and the Apostles, Paul, and all the other Israelite Jews did the same.
Otherwise you are liable to make "disciples" of your own words and truths, rather then His Word.

Just another thought.

John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited

I like the notion of 'being sent' coupled with discipleship.

Too often I am in the world without any notion of 'being sent.' I eat, I buy, I sell, I sleep - so often without any gripping sense of God's sending me somewhere to do his will.
Jesus sent out his disciples - and many times with what might be labelled 'incomplete training. They were sent out before knowing who Jesus was. It's Matthew Chapter 10 that Jesus sends them out but not until Matthew 16 before it dawns on them who Christ really is - 'the Son of the Living God.'

Admittedly there are times when I am gripped with the sense of 'being sent' even though my training is nowhere near complete. But in those moments I do know myself to be his disciple. The way ahead may be shrouded in mystery such that my heart rate goes up, my sense of urgency goes up and my dependency on Christ goes up. These are the best of times as a Christian!
I long for more such moments...

Doug Greenwold, Senior Teaching Fellow at Preserving Bible Times, Inc.

Simon,

The so=called " Great Commission" is rather misnamed. My Greek friends tell me is better reads "As you are going on your way, of course you will be making disciples." It is much more the Great Assumption, the Great Given, than it is the Great Commisson.

This relates to a second thought. Do apple trees have to be told to make apples? Of course not. Making apples is the most obvious and natural thing for an apple tree to do! And do orchard owners put banners in the orchards every spring exhorting the apple tree to make apples? Making apples is the great given if you are an apple tree.

Could it be that we have drifted so far from the contextual understandings of "make disciples" in the first-century Gospel period that we end up in cul de sacs with our discussions and observations rather than on the main road.

In my travels and visits with pastors and leaders of para-church organizations around the country, when I get a chance, and it seems appropriate, I will ask them what they think the essential attributes of disciples of Jesus are (contextually there are about eight attributes). The best answer I've ever gotten so far is three attributes; usually I get but one in response. That kind of begs the question: If we don't what what a disciple of Jesus looks like, then what in the world are we trying to "make?"

Maybe we should just declare our Westernized notions of "discipleship" dead (a non-biblical word by the way - try to find it in Strong's Exhaustive Concordance) so we can freed up to (re)discover Making Disciples Jesus' Way.

Just a thought.

Simon Zelikman at Emmanuel's Doorpost

Doug and all,

Thank you for your many words, but we are not getting any closer to the subject of this ...
...Whats Wrong With Christianity... and How To Fix It ...?!

Ready or not, here goes ...

The Great Commission was and is to proclaim the Truth of God's finished work, the Word for all nations, The Way!

Christ became The Way, for all people to be grafted into the family of God's people, One Body!

Just as the first Passover grafted in a "multitude" of "strangers into the people of God Israel, The new and the True Lamb of God, Jesus Christ provided The Way into the same One Family the people of God Israel!

Those who are in The Way to the Father by Faith in the provided Blood of the True Passover Lamb, are grafted into His Body and are His People, and on a far BIGGER scale then the original Passover!

The problem is, as I see it, You refuse to understand what the Passover is, and You refuse to understand that there is only One God, and only One Body/Family and it is as it always was, Israel!

You look for power, and refuse to even consider the Fact that God called His people by his name, Power with God = IsraEl!!!

I believe your Greek and other friends are in the same way you are, and that is hopelessly Lost, because there is only One God, and His people who will be citizens of the New Jerusalem, and trusted subjects of the King of that Kingdom, the Passover Lamb!!!
So if you proclaim yourself NOT Israel, you proclaim yourself Not ..people of God!?

Does this help you all, at all, with your endless search for the "Great Commission", and His Power, and or, ..... "fixing Christianity"?

John Whitener Missionary at GO TO NATIONS

@ Cristopher. I hope I am doing this correctly. My first time to participate
Dear Brother. I applaud your involvement in a small bible study. I too have encountered the "special dynamics" that occur in such settings. Almost six years ago I started with a group of men, twelve to begin with and then we quickly grew to five. At the onset I presented some goals that I felt would aid us in getting to the summit of the book we were studying at the time. These thoughts went something like this.
1. Our goal is to first understand the text.
2. Secondly we endeavored to savor it, taste it, enjoy it, relish it.
3. Thirdly we would make the effort to put the principle learned into concrete practice.
4 And lastly we would share it as the Lord presented the opportunity.
This was done verse by verse then chapter by chapter.
Keeping focused on these parameters, helped us reach the summit of Romans after four and one half years of meeting every Monday night. There were times when the only proper reaction to our discovery was ... silence.

Needless to say this long study changed our "back bone" if you will and birthed a new taste not for argumentation but for discovery. The pursuit of the summit somehow puts us in step with one another. Be blessed!

Christopher Aune, Certified Life Coach, Counselor and Consultant at Christopher Aune Group

ah! Simon - I get it now. I agree with you, and I think others have said similar things using other words. You are right! I truly appreciate the people in this discussion.

John - A truly great way to study and create solidarity. I believe a study group of 5-7 people is ideal, and sets foundations for leaders. I don't want you to miss Doug G.'s piece on "study groups": What is a Disciple? http://christopheraune.blogspot.com/2014/01/what-is-disciple.html

Christopher Aune, Certified Life Coach, Counselor and Consultant at Christopher Aune Group

As Simon asserts, we are called "by his name, Power with God = IsraEl!" As Jesus says, "this is eternal life; to know God." (John 17:3) Not just any intellectual knowing, but as he asserts throughout the rest of John 17, a "perfect unity."

Do we get there by intellectual study of the Bible? Does knowing what the Bible says about God put us into "perfect unity" with him?

John Whitener - If intellectual study is sufficient, fine. If not, what else is required? What does Jesus "command"? What "commands" do we follow that provide evidence that we are indeed disciples?

Simon Zelikman, at Emmanuel's Doorpost

Christopher,

Let me help you further with your effort in helping Christianity.
You may agree with me, but most "Church", or "Christians", would gleefully stone you, or beat you silly given a chance, for daring to call them .. Israel!

And that was and is my point.

God bless

Gregory Lowrey, Minister at UBU Ministries

Jesus said there was one great commandment; other commandments generally being expositions of that one, as he demonstrates with the "Golden Rule". If we would live according to that there would be no need for anything else. Conformity to that law validates or invalidates all the words of the prophets and all law.
James also suggests that if we live the "Royal Law" we don't have much to worry about, and really if we live the 1st commandment, we likely should be too full of joy to worry anyway.

Doug Greenwold, Senior Teaching Fellow at Preserving Bible Times, Inc.

How the "Golden Rule" gets applied in the gray areas of life and relationships can be a challenge because it can often take significant discernment to apply the "Golden Rule" "rightly." Luther defined an act acceptable to God as the right thing, done at the right time, in the right spirit and for the right motivation. Now, how many times have we got that right! I would tend to lean toward "seeking the mind of Christ" as THE yardstick because on the pages of the NT we find a Jesus who is breaking all the norms, violating many of the cultural "rules," pulverizing people's paradigms as He detoxes His disciples from everything observant Judaism taught them was "true." Welcome to the Kingdom of God where disciples need to be detoxed from everything that Western Culture (American Dream, materialism, narcissism) has done to us! Most people prefer not to apply the Golden Rule to ourselves and others that way!

Shalom,

John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited

Building on both Gregory's and Doug's comments - my notion of how to love my neighbour is yardsticks and yardsticks lower than that of Jesus.
To give some examples - my notion of loving my neighbour would not extend to loving my enemies, selling my possessions to provide for the poor, turning the other cheek to those who abuse me, and forgiving people literally hundreds of times when they repeatedly wrong me.
In fact love along those lines is really something only Jesus requires. Most religions talk about loving your neighbour, but none define what love of neighbour means to the extremes Jesus does.
So yes - discipleship is in short just doing the 'one great commandment', but to such extremes that Jesus becomes visible in its expression. Anything less than that may be commendable but not uniquely Christian.

Simon Zelikman, at Emmanuel's Doorpost

The First Commandment is Not the first one of the Ten, it is a separate Commandment quoted by Christ from Deut 6 :4, it is the doorpost Commandment!
How is it that the "Church" is blind to it?

We are ALL in One Body, His people, Israel! = Power with God!
We are subjects of our King! the King of Israel!
He gave us all The Way to the Almighty Father the God of Israel!
We seek the New Jerusalem!

We are able to wash away our sins by His Atoning Blood, the Blood of our Passover Lamb!
Death Passed us Over!
We are able to go behind that veil of Holy of Holies in Heaven, and in Spirit ask forgiveness, and repent of our sins, having all Faith in Him our High Priest, and our advocate, our intercessor!
In the Holy Spirit and Faith in Him we approach and kneel before the very Throne of Almighty God!

This is the Good News!
The Law fulfilled for all to freely possess The Way into the One God's One Body, Family, brothers and sisters!

John the Baptist paved the way by water Baptism, which was done by Israelites for thousands of years, but after Christ was proclaimed by the Father as the Begotten Son, the only true Baptism became through His Son, our Lord only!
Our Lord, the Passover Lamb provided His Blood for the remission of sins!!!
They all were of the House of Judah and all true Israelites!
The Way for all nations and peoples to become grafted into God's people .."ISRAEL"!
Just as Abraham was promised!

The Commandment Jesus confirmed as the first, is for "all" His people then, and all those who follow Him today, and will tomorrow!

So how is it that most "Church", or "Christians", have no idea what it is, or who it is for?
and seemingly don't even care, or are afraid to even talk about it!
What Commanded mark on the doorpost? Most Christians don't even believe themselves to be Israel, they are mostly offended by this Truth, and this is truly amassing!?!

One thing about the Devil we can recognize, ............. he is Not lazy!

Jesus Christ proclaimed, ....
Hear, O, Israel! ...............
And please do carefully consider, ..... who today hears His call???

God bless His people with eyes to see and ears to hear, "IF" they ask, seek, and knock, so that He can open!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bJ-02-aS8M a 3 min vid on the first Commandment.

Amen

Simon/Christian Israelites
Like Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 3 days ago

Marsha (Marty) Barth, Author at Tate Publishing

Christianity has been turned into religion instead of an experience of Salvation. How do we fix it? We get back to the one who started it all--Our Lord and Savior, "Jesus"; His word, His truth, His Salvation, and we walk with Him and not people or religion. Our church, (which we need by the way and I strongly encourage everyone to find a place of worship where they can grow in God,) should support our relationship with God but not be our relationship with God.
God Bless~~ Marsha (Marty) Barth "The Shattering"

Doug Greenwold, Senior Teaching Fellow at Preserving Bible Times, Inc.

Marty,

It sure helps if we encounter the three-dimensional Jesus of the Scriptures, not the one-dimensional Jesus we can so easily create here in the West. To see Jesus in His first-century, village, agarian, Jewish, Near East robust context, not filter and massage Him through our 21-st century, urbanized, industrialized, post-modern Greek glasses we so easily wear when we engage the Scriptures.

John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited

Marty - I really like what you're saying and I'd do that if I could. But people are a main part of my relationship with God and were I to try and extract them in order to solidify my relationship with Jesus, it's likely to be for naught!

I am not much for revelation, but one revelation I did have years ago was: 'Were I the only person on the planet it would be impossible for me to break 6 of the 10 Commandments! Without other people, killing, theft, coveting, adultery and such are crimes impossible to commit!'

Conversely were I the only one on the planet, the command to love another would be impossible to fulfil with no one but me to care for. Christ's greater love which had him 'laying down his life for his friends' would hardly be of consequence if his only friend was me.
Jesus' revelation of his being found 'in the least of these' commits us to finding him in others as well as finding him on our own.

Marsha (Marty) Barth, Author at Tate Publishing

John and Doug,
Thank you kindly for your input. I just think we are forgetting the question--"What is wrong with Christianity and how do we fix it?" I'm was a little surprised that you didn't reflect on salvation. No matter what dimension I look at Jesus--His message was to us for salvation. His death was for our salvation. That never changes no matter how or in what generation we read the scriptures. And as much as I am a real people person, people couldn't save me from my sins. People are a main part of my life and I would never want to extract them from my life nor their relationships with me, but they can't fill the part of my heart that was meant for God alone. Please don't misunderstand me--I truly believe we need relationships and fellowships--I'm just saying we don't build our faith in God on those relationships alone. They should support our relationship with God not be our relationship with God. Relationships fill a needed part of our heart but they can never fill the part of our heart that God designed for Him alone. I think getting back to the main question is that the word Christian--means we are to be Christlike and how can we be Christlike if we have not experienced Salvation. We are our brothers keepers and we fortify one another, help another, love one another--but we can't save one another and no matter how dear our relationships are it all begins with our own personal relationship with a God that we must know is real to us regardless of what anyone else says or feels. We cannot let religion or people dictate to us what we believe--we have to know what we believe in our own hearts and grow in that. Yes, friends and people and our brothers and sisters in the Lord give us input that helps us to grow in our faith, but if we are not grounded in our relationship with our God, then we will be tossed to and fro and never sure what we ourselves believe in. For me--and it is just my opinion--God is so very real to me, no matter what glasses I put on. I know how broken I was as a child--"The Shattering" and I know what He did for me as a child-and how He intervened in my life and became so real. He's only grown more real to me through the years. Pray you are blessed. Again, thanks for the input. God Bless~~

Penny R Green, Overseer / Women of Purpose Networking Together

I was thinking salvation as well also I wanted to invite everyone to join us on a conference call next Tuesday to talk about it, let's network.

JOIN US EVERY TUESDAY @ 7PM CST

Women of Purpose Networking Together

WOPNT: CONFESSION:
Romans 8:27-39 (KJV)
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

wopnt@live.com
Conference Number (530) 881-1212
Meeting ID: 803-388-422
EVERY TUESDAY 7:00 pm CST

Meet me there, "LETS NETWORK"

Thank you for connecting with us, we are looking forward to an awesome time of encouragement and fellowship.

Christopher Aune, Certified Life Coach, Counselor and Consultant at Christopher Aune Group

Here is a picture of Christ moving. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFtfk0bZVRM

These young people are all disciples of somebody. Did they get by with "just believing?" Not a chance. They learned from their master, and then worked alongside each other. The result of doing each of the small things that their master "commanded" is shared ideas (how to), teamwork. and shared joy. They have all things in common.

We all need to learn the Cup Song of the Good News. What are the small things that Jesus commands so we together can be Christ in conversion (belief), compassion (feeling), and cooperation (action) ?

Christopher Aune, Certified Life Coach, Counselor and Consultant at Christopher Aune Group
Top Contributor

@John Deacon - Now you're answering my question about what Jesus commands, and it bears repeating. Thanks!

John says, "To give some examples - my notion of loving my neighbour would not extend to loving my enemies, selling my possessions to provide for the poor, turning the other cheek to those who abuse me, and forgiving people literally hundreds of times when they repeatedly wrong me.

"In fact love along those lines is really something only Jesus requires. Most religions talk about loving your neighbour, but none define what love of neighbour means to the extremes Jesus does.

"So yes - discipleship is in short just doing the 'one great commandment', but to such extremes that Jesus becomes visible in its expression. Anything less than that may be commendable but not uniquely Christian."

What other "commands" does Jesus teach us?

This topic continues in another discussion in Global Pastors Network, titled "So, what are these commands that Jesus tells us to do that we may move mountains?" 

John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited

Dear Marty:

I truly appreciate your submission and find it irrefutable at heart. Truly Jesus is our salvation and that of the whole world.

That said, I think the notion of salvation when restricted to 'Jesus is my personal Saviour' is flawed not in the sense of being wrong, but in the sense of being woefully incomplete.

One of the things Christ saves us from is being islands to ourselves, alone, separate, without connection to God, without connection to each other. Christ in saving me, brings me out of myself and into a body of other people, a body of which I am but one member, a body without whom Christ is lost to me. He saves me from the exclusivity of 'just me and Jesus' and brings me 'into the fellowship of the saints'. The problem of 'just me and Jesus' is that it is no safeguard from either self-delusion or pride. Our reliance on Him requires the sustenance of others who walk with him.

As you rightfully emphasize: Christ is key. He is the head, he is the cornerstone and foundation, his is the Spirit keeping us together. But we are no longer alone, nor is working and outcome of our salvation alone. Nor is our walk with God alone. We walk with God in fellowship with one another.
So in asking the question about 'what's wrong with Christianity' the fault clearly doesn't lie with the One who saves us. It lies with those he saves. And if we are able to make right what is wrong with Christianity, it will again be Jesus who has helped us.

The reason we even ask ourselves the question is because our renewal is rooted in repentance and repentance is rooted is our coming to grips with what is wrong. Hence John the Baptist came before Jesus, to prepare the way for him by identifying what was wrong. Although space doesn't allow for a complete listing of all that the Baptist identified as wrong, it resonates deeply with what is wrong with Christianity today. As does his remedy:

Luke 3:7-14
John said to the crowds coming out to be baptized by him, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.”
“What should we do then?” the crowd asked.
John answered, “Anyone who has two shirts should share with the one who has none, and anyone who has food should do the same.”
Even tax collectors came to be baptized. “Teacher,” they asked, “what should we do?”
“Don’t collect any more than you are required to,” he told them.
Then some soldiers asked him, “And what should we do?”
He replied, “Don’t extort money and don’t accuse people falsely—be content with your pay.”

Norma Pastor, Author/Producer at First Stone Productions LLC/The Young Alchemists

Jesus said, many will come in my name but by their fruits ye shall recognize them. That is what is wrong with Christianity, many have come in his names but their actions don't reflect the true teachings of Jesus.

Doug Greenwold, Senior Teaching Fellow at Preserving Bible Times, Inc.

In the Near-Eastern context of the Gospels, the community always had a higher priority than the individual. In the West when we read the Scriptures we do so with a different pair of glasses - the individual has a higher priority than the community. That difference is profound. That's why we have so many Lone Ranger Christians and believers who are "strangers in the crowd" when they come to worship. That's why we need to fuse together our notions of personal salvation with a communal understanding of the Kingdom of God.

Just a thought.

Doug Greenwold, Senior Teaching Fellow at Preserving Bible Times, Inc.

Marty,

Salvation is where being a disciple of Jesus starts, not ends. The context of a disciple in the first century was to walk 24/7 with your rabbi. No such thing as a Lone Ranger disciple. I like the Hebrew notions of "rescue and restoration" which we have compressed into one word "salvation" in the Greek. Salvation means we are not only rescued from our sin and set on an eternal path, but we have also been restored to a vibrant dynamic, refining relationship with our Creator and with His people. What was the lyric from the musical "Oklahoma" - "can't have one without the other."

Shalom,

baffour boadu ahenkan, assocciate pastor,
Hello pastor,
With reference to your comments on debates which results quarrels and brings forth divisions and yield many denomination in christiandom. the reason is there is lack of faith in christ, lack of love and knowledge and understanding and wisdom,where there is love there is unity .where there is unity, there is peaceand where there is peace there is liberty..christians have not got to this level which God through his son JESUS came to teach his people in isaiah 61,vrs 1----5. we verbally recite john 3.:6 about how God showed us the example for christians to follow.and corrinthians chapter 13 taught about love.which does not puff of , its not self , it stop us from being egoist,not jealous, patient, irritable, it does not stockpile evil doings, is not happy with evil doing but happy with truth. love never gives up its faith, hope and patience never fail. this what the early disciples followed and did that brought trans formation in tbe ir enviroment , region , country and it impacted about three thousand which sequently brought the religion of christianity, jesus said the children who were outcasts,the widows and orphans is what we should extend our love to the needy ,this is pure chistianity,if christians are ready to go back to the grassroot,, all tis backbitten , position struggles and pride which are the evil courses of divisions, debates,quarrels, would seize and the unbelievers would turn to christ for their salvatiuon . what the bible says and what jesus taught is the same because thre should not beconflict because he came to fulfill the scriptures.

Deborah Barbee, missionary at Chewelah, Abundant Life Church

There seems to be a boundary issue with us and God. Our job is to spread the Word of God in love to all the nations. It's not to soften men's souls to accept the Good News of salvation through our risen Lord. That's God's job. We are the messengers. He is the Savior.
Jesus didn't chase people around, demanding them to see His message His way. He told the Truth to them and then let them go if that was their will to.

Simon Zelikman at Emmanuel's Doorpost

Deborah,

Do you believe He, or His disciples, would be, or should be, indifferent to someone teaching falsely and in His name?

Gregory Lowrey, Minister at UBU Ministries

I think Simon, that living an example of Jesus' teachings would provide sufficient contrast for true seekers. Rather than denounce someone, we can provide a simpler, better, more commonsense idea to appreciate and nurture all of creation.

Simon Zelikman, at Emmanuel's Doorpost

Gregory,
How nice and soothing, thank you so much.

Christians don't seem to know where Baptism comes from, and the "Church" is taught that it is a separate body from the original One, but we all must continue with "a simpler, better, more commonsense idea to appreciate and nurture all of creation." ..?!

I think my Lord would want me stand for Truth, even if it disturbs all the nice soothing tranquility.

Christopher Aune, Certified Life Coach, Counselor and Consultant at Christopher Aune Group

Simon - All things in order. Accepting things as they are, is not condoning them.

It is not we who convert souls, but the holy spirit. Yet we are sowers of the seed (word of God), scattering wherever it may fall; perchance to take root and be productive.

I would not try to debate a sower of tares in public, but would confront him/her as instructed by Jesus... take him aside, then take two to correct his error, then take it to the elders.

I think we can and should stand for truth with minimal disturbing the tranquility. We must allow people to choose unity with God, but we must also correct those who are misleading others.

And a step further, we must be humble fellow students and be ready to be corrected within our "church" or yeshiva. We must know what we're talking about before correcting others, but be open to being corrected in case we have misunderstood.

All - What do you think?

John Deacon, VP at Deacon Insurance Agencies Limited

I have been reflecting on Deborah's entry for some time - particularly thinking about her comment about 'softening men's souls.'

Repeatedly through the Proverbs there is 'the gentle answer which turns away wrath' and Paul's admonishment to Timothy to be gentle with those who oppose him and kind to those he instructs.
The Lord describes himself as 'gentle and humble in heart' which confounds us, given how direct he could be in dealing with the religious leaders as recounted in Matthew 23.

I have had the experience of my soul's being softened toward God in the gentle rebuke of someone wiser than I. The challenge in speaking truth is not only what you say, but how you say it! We need the Holy Spirit for both.

I love the verses describing Jesus:
"He will not quarrel or cry out;
no one will hear his voice in the streets.
A bruised reed he will not break,
and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out,
till he has brought justice through to victory." Matthew 12:19,20

Which has me concluding that the 'softening of men's souls' can be helped by both humility and gentleness in the communication of God's truth.

Doug Greenwold, Senior Teaching Fellow at Preserving Bible Times, Inc.

Simon,

I wonder if your question raises a corrolary question - how best to deal with a zealot in the Kingdom?

It seems that zealots in the Kingdom often exhibit similiar qualities: 1) They are dead sure they are right!, 2) They seem to have little patience with those who differ with them. 3) They tend to be "Truth Tetlers" rather than "Grace Givers," and 4) you can never penetrate their defenses, apologetics or paradigms with another way of looking at the same Kingdom diamond through a different facet/face of that diamond.

How one goes about being "right" is almost as important as being "right." As Luther reminds us, a "good" act, meaning one pleasing to God, is the right act, done at the right time, in the right spirit, and for the right motivation. I must say, my batting average is not very good! I suspect yours is better.

Shalom,

Just a thought.

Simon Zelikman at Emmanuel's Doorpost

Setting aside my many admitted faults for a moment, how about the points I raised in this ...
"How to fix Christianity" string?
Or have you all shut your eyes and ears to all the zealot rudeness, so harshly brought up, that no one here is able to respond?

Norma Pastor, Author/Producer at First Stone Productions LLC/The Young Alchemists

I am a Christian because I love Jesus and his teachings. I have researched extensibly the mystical life of Jesus and I have learned that his teachings are about love and about discovering our divine powers and Christ consciousness within us. He said, "If you believe in my father the same things that I do you can do and better". He said that because we all are made to the image of God and Jesus is the perfect example of what all of us should become.
Based on my personal experiences and revelations, I wrote the recently published novel and upcoming film "The Young Alchemists and the Vatican's Legion of Evil" I wrote this inspiring story long before the resignation of Pope Benedict XVI. I was not surprised about the Pope's decision because in my novel he resignes because by doing so he was going to save his life.
For thousands of years evil forces have been infiltrated in the Vatican and in every corner of the world. Some of them have done so much harm to humanity using the name of God.
Our children have been mentally poisoned with movies, video games, books, obsene music etc. and planet earth is in terrible dangers. The aim of these evil legions incarnated in the physical plane is to corrupt our planet and its inhabitants especially the young . They are determined to dismantle all world religions starting with the Catholic church.
In order to fight these evil forces we sincerelly need to have Jesus in our heart. His love will give us the power to stop this evil and save our planet and its people from these agents of Satan. The harm is done and is almost impossible to turn back but there is still time for Christianity to become united as one force.
Blessings to all of you. By the way, The Young Alchemists and the Vatican's Legion of Evil is a work of fiction; but if you read between the lines you will find a great message that can only be revealed in a fictional way. With my story I am trying to teach the young and old alike to discover the great power withing each and every one of us and also to be careful because THE NONPLUS evil forces are very deceiving and they always pretend to be what they are not. Nonplus is the fictional name I use in my novel to describe the evil forces.